THE ASSUMPTION OF MARY: Condemned as Heretical by 2 Popes in the 5th and 6th Centuries

christiantruth.com ^ | William Webster

[CynicalBear]

>>Do you want proof or evidence? <<

All right. Infallible evidence that the apostles taught the assumption of Mary.

>>And I have to date seen no one disprove that Rev. 12 refers to Mary.<<

Then you haven't been reading the posts on the subject.

[Heart-Rest]

"Now about the assumption of Mary... Let's try some easy math: There are approximately 1.2 billion Catholics world wide; If merely 1% of them 'ask' Mary for help just once each day; that means that 12 million separate prayers are headed Mary's direction every day. Given that there are 86,400 seconds per day... (24 hours times 60 minutes times 60 seconds) ...that means that Mary has to handle approximately 139 'requests' per second! Purty good fer someone NOT 'devine'!"

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First of all, do you have faith enough in God's power to believe that if God willed that Mary be able to hear all those prayers, God has enough power to enable her to hear them?

Now, I'll point you to a short video clip giving a quick answer to your sarcastic skepticism regarding God's power to enable His creatures to do extraordinary and even miraculous things, and urge you to obtain the expanded video they offer there (as well as listen to all the other videos at Catholic Answers youtube - "http://www.youtube.com/catholiccom", as they are quite instructive).

Here's the clip:

"Praying to Mary - A Biblical Defense"

[ronnietherocket3]

No asking for her to pray there. Only asking her to do something. "descend on all people"? That's omnipresence. Ascribing deity to Mary.

What is being asked to descend on all people? Let the flame of your heart, O Mary, descend on all people. The flame of her heart. What is the flame of her heart? The Holy Spirit is frequently described as a flame (flames burn things by the way). In Lk 24:32, the disciples described their hearts as burning while they were walking with Jesus.

She is to help them log God but the heart is given to Mary.

Wow! Not just not asking her to pray for them but giving themselves totally to Mary. Not God.

If you want to know what is meant in Catholicism about giving something to Mary, go here . It has a quote from a Pope.

[metmom]

The description that the woman will bear a son destined to rule all nations. I can think of two women who can claim this Israel and Mary. However, Rev 12 describes the devil as trying to sweep her away with the flood. The flood did not touch the woman. The flood could kill the woman by drowning her in sin (sin is the mechanism by which the devil cuts us off from God). However the flood (sin) does not touch the woman. It likely is not Israel as well read Hosea. However, thank you for the Immaculate Conception.

There is no such thing as the immaculate conception.

Mary was a sinner, just like the rest of us.

Besides, if the woman in Revelation was Mary, then who are the other offspring of hers that Satan is off to war against?

The proves then, that Mary was not perpetually a virgin if she had other offspring.

[Heart-Rest]

"Are you limited to only study what catholicism allows you to study?"

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No, I'm free to study whatever I choose to study.    However, I would not waste my time studying that "Kabbalah" stuff you are so earnestly digging through there.

[boatbums]

That IS sola scriptura in PRACTICE, even though (I am well aware of the following fact I can assure you), that’s not the formal definition of sola scriptura.

You mean like with the formal Roman Catholic denial of "Catholics don't worship Mary", but, in PRACTICE, many DO?

The doctrine of sola Scriptura is that the Scriptures, as the sole Divinely-inspired resource we have, must be the basis for all claims of binding Christian truth. When someone asserts all Christians MUST believe XYZ, XYZ must be proved by God's word. This is an ancient principle going back thousands of years BEFORE Christianity even started. Isaiah the Prophet, for example, said:

And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God for the living to the dead? To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa. 8:19-20)

[ronnietherocket3]

Besides, if the woman in Revelation was Mary, then who are the other offspring of hers that Satan is off to war against?

The claim that Mary has other children does not disprove the Perpetual Virginity. It is the Catholic position that she is the Mother of all Christians. What would either disprove this woman is Mary or the Perpetual Virginity is a description that she bore the children from her womb. This passage only describes one child as being born of her womb.

There is no such thing as the immaculate conception.

Do you have evidence? Keep in mind Mary is already special; she had a virgin birth.

[Syncro]

Very interesting texts showing the worship of Mary by Catholics. And trusting her for conversion:

Grant that we may always experience the goodness of your motherly heart, and that through the flame of your heart we may be converted. Amen.

The devotees have no need for Jesus, nor room for Him in their lives as they pledge all their hearts and body parts to Mary and get their salvation from her. Sad, sad sad...

[caww]

.....”Catholics not only pray to them but they ask them to do things reserved for God and also give them attributes of deity. Thus worship”.......

It’s purely an add-on that ‘placated many pagans’ they invited into the church, who had there own female cults. She was the bait to lure them in.

[metmom]

Many in grave sin will go to Mary first, as Jesus is too frightening for them to approach.

Jesus? The one in the Bible?

The one who calls Himself the *good shepherd*?

The one who laid down His life to save us?

The one who forgave the woman caught in adultery?

The one who longs to gather Jerusalem under His arms as a hen gathers her chicks?

The one who said *Come unto me.......*?

Why on earth would any one think that Jesus is too frightening to approach?

Why would they have cause to fear Him? What do they think He's going to do to them?

What kind of Jesus has been portrayed to them that they would FEAR Him?

[CynicalBear]

>> It is the Catholic position that she is the Mother of all Christians.<<

Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

So now Mary is the Jerusalem which is above too? That's one versitile woman!

[metmom]

Give us one Scripture verse that commands us to pray to Mary.

THAT would be a Biblical defense for praying to her.

[Elsie]

First of all, do you have faith enough in God's power to believe that if God willed that Mary be able to hear all those prayers, God has enough power to enable her to hear them?

Do you have enough brains to understand I do not go chasing these Catholic rabbits down the holes you keep trying to dig?

[ronnietherocket3]

This is an ancient principle going back thousands of years BEFORE Christianity even started.And was taught by the Sadducees.

As for your Isaiah quote,

And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God for the living to the dead? To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa. 8:19-20)

It does not say written law.

The doctrine of sola Scriptura is that the Scriptures, as the sole Divinely-inspired resource we have, must be the basis for all claims of binding Christian truth. When someone asserts all Christians MUST believe XYZ, XYZ must be proved by God's word.

At best this means that one cannot require belief in the Assumption; it fails to establish the Assumption is false.

[boatbums]

When a religion has to de-emphasize sacred Scripture in order to assert the superiority of their hierarchy, it’s a sure warning to escape from that religion as fast as you can.

[Elsie]

It has a quote from a Pope.

This thread STARTED because of what two popes said.

[Elsie]

However, I would not waste my time studying that "Kabbalah" stuff you are so earnestly digging through there.

I rest my case.

[Elsie]

Many in grave sin will go to Mary first, as Jesus is too frightening for them to approach.

GOD has sent them a great delusion.

[metmom]

Do you have evidence? Keep in mind Mary is already special; she had a virgin birth.

Mary said God was her savior. Only sinners need a savior.

If she was sinless, then she didn't need a savior, so she would have been lying in calling God her savior, which just ended the sinless streak.

Sure. Mary had a virgin birth. OK. There's Scripture to back that up, and plenty of it.

How is that connected to her supposedly being immaculately conceived?

[Elsie]

Many in grave sin ...

Only in RCC teaching is there gradation of sin.