Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Evangelicals & the Eucharist (Part 1)
The Cripplegate, New Generation of Non-Conformists ^ | May 23, 2013 | Nathan Busenitz, professor of theology at Cripplegate's The Master’s Seminary

Posted on 01/28/2015 1:23:00 PM PST by RnMomof7

Over the past few weeks, I have received no less than three inquiries regarding the early church’s celebration of the Lord’s Table and its implications for the evangelical church today. Two of these inquiries have come from Roman Catholics, each of whom has suggested that the Roman Catholic practice of transubstantiation best represents the way the Lord’s Table was observed in the first few centuries of church history.

Over the past few weeks, I have received no less than three inquiries regarding the early church’s celebration of the Lord’s Table and its implications for the evangelical church today. Two of these inquiries have come from Roman Catholics, each of whom has suggested that the Roman Catholic practice of transubstantiation best represents the way the Lord’s Table was observed in the first few centuries of church  history.

This two-part post is intended to provide an initial response to such assertions.

last_supper

The word “eucharist” means “thanksgiving” and was an early Christian way of referring to the celebration of the Lord’s Table. Believers in the early centuries of church history regularly celebrated the Lord’s Table as a way to commemorate the death of Christ. The Lord Himself commanded this observance on the night before His death. As the apostle Paul recorded in 1 Corinthians 11:23–26:

For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.

In discussing the Lord’s Table from the perspective of church history, at least two important questions arise. First, did the early church believe that the elements (the bread and the cup) were actually and literally transformed into the physical body and blood of Christ? In other words, did they articulate the doctrine of transubstantiation as modern Roman Catholics do? Second, did early Christians view the eucharist as a propitiatory sacrifice? Or put another way, did they view it in the terms articulated by the sixteenth-century Council of Trent?

In today’s post, we will address the first of those two questions.

Did the Early Church Fathers Hold to Transubstantiation?

Transubstantiation is the Roman Catholic teaching that in the eucharist, the bread and the cup are transformed into the literal body and blood of Christ. Here are several quotes from the church fathers, often cited by Roman Catholics, in defense of their claim that the early church embraced transubstantiation.

Ignatius of Antioch (d. c. 110): “Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God.   . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1).

Irenaeus (d. 202): “He took from among creation that which is bread, and gave thanks, saying, ‘This is my body.’ The cup likewise, which is from among the creation to which we belong, he confessed to be his blood” (Against Heresies, 4:17:5).

Irenaeus again: “He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. When, therefore, the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receives the Word of God and becomes the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life—flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord, and is in fact a member of him?” (Against Heresies, 5:2).

Tertullian (160–225): “[T]he flesh feeds on the body and blood of Christ, that the soul likewise may be filled with God” (The Resurrection of the Dead).

Origen (182–254): “Formerly, in an obscure way, there was manna for food; now, however, in full view, there is the true food, the flesh of the Word of God, as he himself says: ‘My flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink’” (Homilies on Numbers, 7:2).

Augustine (354–430): “I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord’s Table. . . . That bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ” (Sermons 227).

How should we think about such statements?

Obviously, there is no disputing the fact that the patristic authors made statements like, “The bread is the body of Christ” and “The cup is the blood of Christ.” But there is a question of exactly what they meant when they used that language. After all, the Lord Himself said, “This is My body” and “This is My blood.” So it is not surprising that the early fathers echoed those very words.

But what did they mean when they used the language of Christ to describe the Lord’s Table? Did they intend the elements to be viewed as Christ’s literal flesh and blood? Or did they see the elements as symbols and figures of those physical realities?

In answering such questions, at least two things ought to be kept in mind:

* * * * *

1. We ought to interpret the church fathers’ statements within their historical context.

Such is especially true with regard to the quotes cited above from Ignatius and Irenaeus. During their ministries, both men found themselves contending against the theological error of docetism (a component of Gnostic teaching), which taught that all matter was evil. Consequently, docetism denied that Jesus possessed a real physical body. It was against this false teaching that the apostle John declared, “For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist” (2 John 7).

In order to combat the false notions of docetism, Ignatius and Irenaeus echoed the language Christ used at the Last Supper (paraphrasing His words, “This is My body” and “This is My blood”). Such provided a highly effective argument against docetic heresies, since our Lord’s words underscore the fact that He possessed a real, physical body.

A generation after Irenaeus, Tertullian (160–225) used the same arguments against the Gnostic heretic Marcion. However, Tertullian provided more information into how the eucharistic elements ought to be understood. Tertullian wrote:

“Having taken the bread and given it to His disciples, Jesus made it His own body, by saying, ‘This is My body,’ that is, the symbol of My body. There could not have been a symbol, however, unless there was first a true body. An empty thing or phantom is incapable of a symbol. He likewise, when mentioning the cup and making the new covenant to be sealed ‘in His blood,’ affirms the reality of His body. For no blood can belong to a body that is not a body of flesh” (Against Marcion, 4.40).

Tertullian’s explanation could not be clearer. On the one hand, he based his argument against Gnostic docetism on the words of Christ, “This is My body.” On the other hand, Tertullian recognized that the elements themselves ought to be understood as symbols which represent the reality of Christ’s physical body. Because of the reality they represented, they provided a compelling refutation of docetic error.

Based on Tertullian’s explanation, we have good reason to view the words of Ignatius and Irenaeus in that same light.

* * * * *

2. We ought to allow the church fathers to clarify their understanding of the Lord’s Table.

We have already seen how Tertullian clarified his understanding of the Lord’s Table by noting that the bread and the cup were symbols of Christ’s body and blood. In that same vein, we find that many of the church fathers similarly clarified their understanding of the eucharist by describing it in symbolic and spiritual terms.

At times, they echoed the language of Christ (e.g. “This is My body” and “This is My blood”) when describing the Lord’s Table. Yet, in other places, it becomes clear that they intended this language to be ultimately understood in spiritual and symbolic terms. Here are a number of examples that demonstrate this point:

The Didache, written in the late-first or early-second century, referred to the elements of the Lord’s table as “spiritual food and drink” (The Didache, 9). The long passage detailing the Lord’s Table in this early Christian document gives no hint of transubstantiation whatsoever.

Justin Martyr (110–165) spoke of “the bread which our Christ gave us to offer in remembrance of the Body which He assumed for the sake of those who believe in Him, for whom He also suffered, and also to the cup which He taught us to offer in the Eucharist, in commemoration of His blood(Dialogue with Trypho, 70).

Clement of Alexandria explained that, “The Scripture, accordingly, has named wine the symbol of the sacred blood” (The Instructor, 2.2).

Origen similarly noted, “We have a symbol of gratitude to God in the bread which we call the Eucharist” (Against Celsus, 8.57).

Cyprian (200–258), who sometimes described the eucharist using very literal language, spoke against any who might use mere water for their celebration of the Lord’s Table. In condemning such practices, he explained that the cup of the Lord is a representation of the blood of Christ: “I marvel much whence this practice has arisen, that in some places, contrary to Evangelical and Apostolic discipline, water is offered in the Cup of the Lord, which alone cannot represent the Blood of Christ” (Epistle 63.7).

Eusebius of Caesarea (263–340) espoused a symbolic view in his Proof of the Gospel:

For with the wine which was indeed the symbol of His blood, He cleanses them that are baptized into His death, and believe on His blood, of their old sins, washing them away and purifying their old garments and vesture, so that they, ransomed by the precious blood of the divine spiritual grapes, and with the wine from this vine, “put off the old man with his deeds, and put on the new man which is renewed into knowledge in the image of Him that created him.” . . . He gave to His disciples, when He said, “Take, drink; this is my blood that is shed for you for the remission of sins: this do in remembrance of me.” And, “His teeth are white as milk,” show the brightness and purity of the sacramental food. For again, He gave Himself the symbols of His divine dispensation to His disciples, when He bade them make the likeness of His own Body. For since He no more was to take pleasure in bloody sacrifices, or those ordained by Moses in the slaughter of animals of various kinds, and was to give them bread to use as the symbol of His Body, He taught the purity and brightness of such food by saying, “And his teeth are white as milk” (Demonstratia Evangelica, 8.1.76–80).

Athanasius (296–373) similarly contended that the elements of the Eucharist are to be understood spiritually, not physically: “[W]hat He says is not fleshly but spiritual. For how many would the body suffice for eating, that it should become the food for the whole world? But for this reason He made mention of the ascension of the Son of Man into heaven, in order that He might draw them away from the bodily notion, and that from henceforth they might learn that the aforesaid flesh was heavenly eating from above and spiritual food given by Him.” (Festal Letter, 4.19)

Augustine (354–430), also, clarified that the Lord’s Table was to be understood in spiritual terms: “Understand spiritually what I said; you are not to eat this body which you see; nor to drink that blood which they who will crucify me shall pour forth. . . . Although it is needful that this be visibly celebrated, yet it must be spiritually understood” (Exposition of the Psalms, 99.8).

He also explained the eucharistic elements as symbols. Speaking of Christ, Augustine noted: “He committed and delivered to His disciples the figure [or symbol] of His Body and Blood.” (Exposition of the Psalms, 3.1).

And in another place, quoting the Lord Jesus, Augustine further explained: “‘Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man,’ says Christ, ‘and drink His blood, ye have no life in you.’ This seems to enjoin a crime or a vice; it is therefore a figure [or symbol], enjoining that we should have a share in the sufferings of our Lord, and that we should retain a sweet and profitable memory of the fact that His flesh was wounded and crucified for us (On Christian Doctrine, 3.16.24).

A number of similar quotations from the church fathers could be given to make the point that—at least for many of the fathers—the elements of the eucharist were ultimately understood in symbolic or spiritual terms. In other words, they did not hold to the Roman Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation.

To be sure, they often reiterated the language of Christ when He said, “This is My body” and “This is My blood.” They especially used such language in defending the reality of His incarnation against Gnostic, docetic heretics who denied the reality of Christ’s physical body.

At the same time, however, they clarified their understanding of the Lord’s Table by further explaining that they ultimately recognized the elements of the Lord’s Table to be symbols—figures which represented and commemorated the physical reality of our Lord’s body and blood.

Next week, in part 2, we will consider whether or not the church fathers regarded the Lord’s Table as a propiatory sacrifice (as the Council of Trent defines it) or as simply a memorial offering of thanksgiving.

16


TOPICS: Apologetics; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Other Christian
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholicbashing; communion; evangelicals; transubstantiation
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 161-180181-200201-220 ... 421-428 next last
To: CynicalBear; Arthur McGowan
"Remembrance" in the tradition of the Passover Seder means and meant more than simple recollection, but of "making the Passover present."

According to The Christian Resource Institute:

This blend of tradition and innovation conforms to the purpose of the celebration: to tell the story of God’s actions in history in a way that brings it out of the past and makes it a present reality for everyone in the community, young and old, as if they personally are part of the story.
Paul makes the reality of Christ's bodily presence in the Lord's Supper clear:
For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep [i.e., died].


181 posted on 01/29/2015 10:32:12 AM PST by St_Thomas_Aquinas ( Isaiah 22:22, Matthew 16:19, Revelation 3:7)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 164 | View Replies]

To: Springfield Reformer
It is very ordinary, and I surmise the disciples raised no questions about it because they understood he was extending the metaphor already in use in the passover meal, which depicted, by way of remembrance, the deliverance of Israel from Egypt.

Excellent point. It is good to remember that all of the apostles were Jews, and the symbolism of physical things representing the things of God are well established (the laver of water, the incense, the pascal lamb, the scapegoat, the mercy seat, etc.). So having something physical (bread, wine) to represent something spiritual would have been very common to them.

However, the idea that they would eat actual human flesh and drink actual human blood would have horrified the apostles, as cannibalism was portrayed as a the result of a curse from God in the Old Testament.

182 posted on 01/29/2015 10:39:17 AM PST by CA Conservative (Texan by birth, Californian by circumstance)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Elsie

That you MUST have? I.e., that you will certainly go to hell without?

Perhaps nothing. That is, it is not a CERTAINTY that you will be damned if you do not become a Catholic. (I am hoping that Jesus might be more expansive than his own words, since HE said that you MUST eat his body and drink his blood in order to have eternal life.)

But even if you might be saved, Jesus wants you to have Himself in the way he commanded, eating and drinking his body and blood, as he says in John, Chapter Six.


183 posted on 01/29/2015 10:42:35 AM PST by Arthur McGowan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 179 | View Replies]

To: Salvation
Does that mean that you can commit adultery, murder, lie, steal, etc. and still be saved?

Such hyperbole! No, if you are living a life where the actions you list above are a part of your normal behavior, obviously you are not saved ("by their fruits you will know them".) But Christians can and do fall into sin. The apostle John addresses the issue of Christians and sin very directly in 1 John:

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. "(1 John 1:8,9) Notice no mention of the need to confess to a priest?

"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." (1 John 2:1) Since Jesus is our Advocate, He is the only one we need to whom we need to confess.

184 posted on 01/29/2015 10:59:48 AM PST by CA Conservative (Texan by birth, Californian by circumstance)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]

To: Arthur McGowan
Consuming the blood of the Passover lamb would have been disgusting.

No, consuming the blood of the Passover lamb would have been a violation of the law of God. So why would Jesus ask His apostles to violate the law of God?

185 posted on 01/29/2015 11:05:16 AM PST by CA Conservative (Texan by birth, Californian by circumstance)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 61 | View Replies]

To: Arthur McGowan
Of course, it had always been forbidden. This is precisely why so many departed when Jesus DID demand that we drink his blood.

Your statement is in direct contradiction to Scripture. The prohibition against consuming blood was part of the Law of Moses. For Jesus to have demanded others to consume blood would have broken the law of Moses, i.e., been sin.

Now you might argue that since Jesus is God, He could change the law. But Jesus said He did not come to overturn the law, but came to fulfill the law in every respect:

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.…" Matt. 5:17-18

By your statement, you are saying He did not fulfill the Law, which would have made Him a sinner, and unable to be our Savior.

186 posted on 01/29/2015 11:24:31 AM PST by CA Conservative (Texan by birth, Californian by circumstance)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 90 | View Replies]

To: Arthur McGowan

Jesus could not have demanded that people violate the Law and sin.

HE was the one who established the Law. He could not violate it and remain sinless.


187 posted on 01/29/2015 12:02:55 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 90 | View Replies]

To: Arthur McGowan
Certainly, you are not saying that Jesus COULD NOT change anything in Old Testament law.

That's right. His words not mine.

Matthew 5:17-20 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

188 posted on 01/29/2015 12:06:07 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 92 | View Replies]

To: Springfield Reformer
>>If Christ wanted to invoke symbolism, He would have said “This represents My body” and “This represents My blood.”<<

Not true. What jesus said is the normal structure of direct metaphor, A is B. It is used all the time and in less controversial settings no one is confused by its meaning. If I point to a map of Texas, and say, "This is Texas," you don't think I really mean the paper is actually a state with real people living on it. At least I hope you don't. That's because our brains are wired to spot the comparison of two dissimilar domains for the purpose of getting information by analogy. It is one of the most basic methods by which we learn, we take a known object, and compare it to a less well known object, so we can learn something about that less well known object. It is very ordinary, and I surmise the disciples raised no questions about it because they understood he was extending the metaphor already in use in the passover meal, which depicted, by way of remembrance, the deliverance of Israel from Egypt. By this new meaning, as Christ gave it, we are to remember what He has done to deliver us from our own slavery to sin.

I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
-John, Catholic chapter six, Protestant verses fifty one through fifty nine, as authorized by King James

    I see a few issues with equating or subsuming the Lord's Supper in the Passover Seder.
  1. Jesus told the Jews they had to eat his body and drink his blood to have life, and that his flesh is real food and his blood real drink.
  2. Furthermore many of His disciples stumbled at this teaching, were offended, and left Him. Had this teaching merely been that the Cup of Redemption and the Afikomen (the third cup in the Passover Seder and the matzah hidden as a game for the children, handed down to us today) that was meant to symbolize Him, even if the actual Seder differed, it seems strange to imagine the Jews, including some of his disciples stumbled over obvious symbolism. To the contrary, they interpreted Him literally, as the scriptures indicate, and did not have the faith to believe His words.
  3. Tradition testifies against it. We see about two millennia of holy communion unlike the Passover Seder, and unlike the bread and grape juice shared in Evangelical assemblies. Indeed, it is telling that the founding fathers of the Reformation famously split over whether Messiah was present in the elements or it was only a memorial. Notwithstanding the argument that there should be a common tradition to accompany an unbroken chain of the holy catholic apostolic church, none of the churches, denominations, sects, or faith groups have historically used the Passover Seder as the Lord's Supper. Whilst some can try to recreate or reform the Christian faith yet again, this time in a rabbinic Jewish context, and celebrate the Passover and Lord's Supper at the same time, and only once per year, it does not maintain continuity with almost two millennia of Christianity. It is a restoration attempt, without an Apostle, much less twelve genuine Jewish Apostles who lived, learned, and ate with Jesus. There should be a historic visible tradition of the Lord's Supper over the millennia, and there is.
  4. I understand someone saying that he does not have the faith to literally believe Jesus' teaching, just as so many did not have the faith to believe in the First Century as recorded by John. The proper response at that point is not to argue against the teaching, as some of them did, but to say, "Lord, I believe, help me with my unbelief." Become as a little child with respect to faith, so to speak.

189 posted on 01/29/2015 12:19:28 PM PST by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Elsie
You’ve got a great backhand there!

*shrugs* It's a gift. ; )

190 posted on 01/29/2015 1:12:24 PM PST by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 162 | View Replies]

To: metmom

So, do you eat the Passover? Do you eat pork? Do you offer sacrifices at the Temple?

The MORAL law is unchangeable. The Jewish RITUAL law could and did change.

The prohibition on drinking the blood of the victim existed for a certain reason—that the victim’s life belonged to God. That reason ceased to exist when the victim was no longer an animal, but Jesus himself. The life of Jesus belongs to US. He gave it to us.

He TELLS us that he has given us his life precisely by commanding that we drink his blood.


191 posted on 01/29/2015 1:29:22 PM PST by Arthur McGowan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 188 | View Replies]

To: metmom

You must distinguish between the moral law and ritual law. One cannot change, the other did change when Jesus fulfilled what the old rituals prefigured.


192 posted on 01/29/2015 1:38:48 PM PST by Arthur McGowan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 187 | View Replies]

To: CA Conservative

Jesus is NOT the Passover lamb. Jesus is prefigured by the Passover lamb.

The prohibition on drinking the blood of the lamb signified that the life of the lamb came from God and belonged to God.

The command to drink the blood of Jesus signifies that Jesus’ life does NOT belong to God any longer. It belongs to US because Jesus gave his life for us. Thus, his blood—the symbol of his life—also belongs to us. He TELLS us this precisely by commanding us to drink his blood.

To refuse to drink the blood of Jesus is to refuse the gift of his life that he wills to give to us.

To cling to the law of the Old Covenant is to refuse the gift given to us under the New Covenant.


193 posted on 01/29/2015 1:43:42 PM PST by Arthur McGowan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 185 | View Replies]

To: Arthur McGowan; metmom
>>That reason ceased to exist when the victim was no longer an animal, but Jesus himself.<<

And your evidence from scripture after the statement of the apostles in Acts 15 is what??

194 posted on 01/29/2015 1:51:59 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 191 | View Replies]

To: Arthur McGowan
The command to drink the blood of Jesus signifies that Jesus’ life does NOT belong to God any longer. It belongs to US because Jesus gave his life for us. Thus, his blood—the symbol of his life—also belongs to us. He TELLS us this precisely by commanding us to drink his blood.

If any of this had any actual Scriptural basis, you might have a case. But since your only support for your statement is church tradition, it doesn't have much validity.

You still haven't addressed how or why Jesus would command His disciples to sin according to the Law of Moses, yet still be able to be sinless and able to be our Savior. Remember, Jesus Himself said He did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill the Law. How could He fulfill the Law if He is breaking the Law???

195 posted on 01/29/2015 1:56:35 PM PST by CA Conservative (Texan by birth, Californian by circumstance)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 193 | View Replies]

To: af_vet_1981; Salvation; Arthur McGowan; metmom; RnMomof7
From Matthew Henry's commentary on John 6:

(1.) Let us see how this discourse of Christ was liable to mistake and misconstruction, that men might see, and not perceive. [1.] It was misconstrued by the carnal Jews, to whom it was first delivered (John 6:52): They strove among themselves; they whispered in each other’s ears their dissatisfaction: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Christ spoke (John 6:51) of giving his flesh for us, to suffer and die; but they, without due consideration, understood it of his giving it to us, to be eaten, which gave occasion to Christ to tell them that, however what he said was otherwise intended, yet even that also of eating of his flesh was no such absurd thing (if rightly understood) as prima facie—in the first instance, they took it to be. [2.] It has been wretchedly misconstrued by the church of Rome for the support of their monstrous doctrine of transubstantiation, which gives the lie to our senses, contradicts the nature of a sacrament, and overthrows all convincing evidence. They, like these Jews here, understand it of a corporal and carnal eating of Christ’s body, like Nicodemus, John 3:4. The Lord’s supper was not yet instituted, and therefore it could have no reference to that; it is a spiritual eating and drinking that is here spoken of, not a sacramental. [3.] It is misunderstood by many ignorant carnal people, who hence infer that, if they take the sacrament when they die, they shall certainly go to heaven, which, as it makes many that are weak causelessly uneasy if they want it, so it makes many that are wicked causelessly easy if they have it. Therefore,

(2.) Let us see how this discourse of Christ is to be understood.

[1.] What is meant by the flesh and blood of Christ. It is called (John 6:53), The flesh of the Son of man, and his blood, his as Messiah and Mediator: the flesh and blood which he assumed in his incarnation (Heb. 2:14), and which he gave up in his death and suffering: my flesh which I will give to be crucified and slain. It is said to be given for the life of the world, that is, First, Instead of the life of the world, which was forfeited by sin, Christ gives his own flesh as a ransom or counterprice. Christ was our bail, bound body for body (as we say), and therefore his life must go for ours, that ours may be spared. Here am I, let these go their way. Secondly, In order to the life of the world, to purchase a general offer of eternal life to all the world, and the special assurances of it to all believers. So that the flesh and blood of the Son of man denote the Redeemer incarnate and dying; Christ and him crucified, and the redemption wrought out by him, with all the precious benefits of redemption: pardon of sin, acceptance with God, the adoption of sons, access to the throne of grace, the promises of the covenant, and eternal life; these are called the flesh and blood of Christ, 1. Because they are purchased by his flesh and blood, by the breaking of his body, and shedding of his blood. Well may the purchased privileges be denominated from the price that was paid for them, for it puts a value upon them; write upon them pretium sanguinis—the price of blood. 2. Because they are meat and drink to our souls. Flesh with the blood was prohibited (Gen. 9:4), but the privileges of the gospel are as flesh and blood to us, prepared for the nourishment of our souls. He had before compared himself to bread, which is necessary food; here to flesh, which is delicious. It is a feast of fat things, Isa. 25:6. The soul is satisfied with Christ as with marrow and fatness, Ps. 63:5. It is meat indeed, and drink indeed; truly so, that is spiritually; so Dr. Whitby; as Christ is called the true vine; or truly meat, in opposition to the shows and shadows with which the world shams off those that feed upon it. In Christ and his gospel there is real supply, solid satisfaction; that is meat indeed, and drink indeed, which satiates and replenishes, Jer. 31:25, 26.

[2.] What is meant by eating this flesh and drinking this blood, which is so necessary and beneficial; it is certain that is means neither more nor less than believing in Christ. As we partake of meat and drink by eating and drinking, so we partake of Christ and his benefits by faith: and believing in Christ includes these four things, which eating and drinking do:—First, It implies an appetite to Christ. This spiritual eating and drinking begins with hungering and thirsting (Matt. 5:6), earnest and importunate desires after Christ, not willing to take up with any thing short of an interest in him: “Give me Christ or else I die.” Secondly, An application of Christ to ourselves. Meat looked upon will not nourish us, but meat fed upon, and so made our own, and as it were one with us. We must so accept of Christ as to appropriate him to ourselves: my Lord, and my God, John 20:28. Thirdly, A delight in Christ and his salvation. The doctrine of Christ crucified must be meat and drink to us, most pleasant and delightful. We must feast upon the dainties of the New Testament in the blood of Christ, taking as great a complacency in the methods which Infinite Wisdom has taken to redeem and save us as ever we did in the most needful supplies or grateful delights of nature. Fourthly, A derivation of nourishment

196 posted on 01/29/2015 2:08:00 PM PST by PieterCasparzen (Repent !)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 189 | View Replies]

To: CynicalBear

Simple. The Church was in the midst of a great debate about the Jewish Law. How much of it was it necessary to observe? Notice that the Council of Jerusalem reduces observance of the Law to a bare minimum. Later, Paul led the movement to put aside ALL of the Jewish ritual law—even circumcision.

So, what was determined by the Council of Jerusalem was a compromise. It was not for all time.

Also: the reference to not drinking blood concerns ANIMAL sacrifices, not the blood of Jesus in the Eucharist. In fact, at this time, Christians sometimes ate meat sacrificed by Jews, and sometimes by pagans.

St. Paul writes about receiving the body and blood of Jesus in the Eucharist. He says that one who receives unworthily is “guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.”


197 posted on 01/29/2015 2:08:33 PM PST by Arthur McGowan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 194 | View Replies]

To: CA Conservative

Do you eat the Passover lamb? Do you eat pork? Do you sacrifice animals to God?

Why not? You just said that Jesus himself could not change the Mosaic Law.


198 posted on 01/29/2015 2:12:11 PM PST by Arthur McGowan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 195 | View Replies]

To: CA Conservative

So, do you eat the Passover? Do you eat pork? Do you offer sacrifices at the Temple?

The MORAL law is unchangeable. The Jewish RITUAL law could and did change.

The prohibition on drinking the blood of the victim existed for a certain reason—that the victim’s life belonged to God. That reason ceased to exist when the victim was no longer an animal, but Jesus himself. The life of Jesus belongs to US. He gave it to us.

He TELLS us that he has given us his life precisely by commanding that we drink his blood.


199 posted on 01/29/2015 2:14:56 PM PST by Arthur McGowan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 186 | View Replies]

To: Arthur McGowan

The prohibition against drinking blood PREDATES the Law and was reiterated AFTER Jesus died, rose again, and the Holy Spirit empowered the church on the day of Pentecost.

Doesn’t make a bit of difference whether one considers it part of the ritual law that was no longer needed or not.


200 posted on 01/29/2015 2:17:04 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 191 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 161-180181-200201-220 ... 421-428 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson