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Salvation by grace alone through faith alone excludes works righteousness
Possessing the Treasure ^ | February 16, 2015 | Mike Ratliff

Posted on 02/19/2015 4:20:17 PM PST by RnMomof7

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; 9 and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, ‘ We have Abraham for our father’; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. 10 The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 11 “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” (Matthew 3:7-12 NASB)

In the passage above John the Baptist was addressing a form of spiritual blindness that was afflicting the Pharisees and Sadducees. Is there the same sort of stubborn blindness pertaining to Christianity? Yes, sadly there is. Spiritual blindness is a darkness beyond our ability to describe. This blindness is rampant in the “visible Church” in our day. Jesus prophesied about this.

24 “ Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘ Lord, open up to us! ’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘ I do not know where you are from. ’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27 and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from ME, all you evildoers. ’ 28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out. 29 And they will come from east and west and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God. 30 And behold, some are last who will be first and some are first who will be last.” (Luke 13:24-30 NASB)

Many who believe they are Christians are not. They have a form of righteousness, but it is not the righteousness born from above. It is self-righteousness. One group that contended with John the Baptist, Our Lord Jesus Christ and His disciples, was the Pharisees. Who hasn’t heard believers accusing other believers of being a Pharisee? These accusations are usually thrown at people who are stricter than the accuser in their judgments of saved and lost. The Liberal calls a person who judges on the basis of regeneration as the only evidence of saving faith as being a Pharisee. The mainstream church-goer calls all fundamentalists Pharisees. The antinomian calls those who preach Lordship salvation Pharisees.

Is this accurate? Are these examples of modern day Pharisees? Let us look in the Word for our answer.

Who were the Pharisees of the Bible? They were the religious conservatives within Judaism. They held very strictly to the Torah and the Talmud and were outwardly very moral. They were the leaders of the majority of the Jews and were very popular with the common people. They were revered by their followers for their religious zeal and dedication, and they were models worthy if imitation. Their main opposition were the Sadducees, the religious liberals within Judaism. They did not believe that the damned will be punished eternally in hell and that the saved will dwell eternally in heaven. The Sadducees were popular among the high-class minority.

The first mention of the Pharisees in the Bible is found in Matthew 3:7-12, which I placed at the top of this post. Here is is again.

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; 9 and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, ‘ We have Abraham for our father’; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. 10 The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 11 “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” (Matthew 3:7-12 NASB)

Why would John the Baptist say that the Pharisees, who were outwardly moral, zealous, and religious, were the brood of vipers? Why would he say that they had not brought forth good fruit? Isn’t obedience to the law good fruit? Who was he to judge the hearts of these fine upstanding religious people? Wasn’t he being too harsh with them? Couldn’t he have toned it down a bit? Was “brood of vipers” really necessary? Isn’t that mean and unloving? How did he expect to gain an audience with such language? Didn’t he know that one catches more flies with honey than with vinegar? And what was he doing lumping them in with the Sadducces, who didn’t even believe in an afterlife?

John the Baptist was absolutely correct in his rebuke of the Pharisees. Both John and our Lord reserved their harshest words for these men as well. The reason Liberal Theology has so decimated the Church in our day is that most Christians have believed the lie that they must not speak up or confront other professing Christians. Why? They believe that it will reflect badly on Christ and the Church to have these contentions made public. However, John the Baptist and our Lord certainly didn’t refrain from telling the truth.

However, before Christians can emulate them, they must know the reason why the Pharisees were judged to be lost by our Lord and John. We cannot make these judgments based on any feelings about them. We cannot “discern” that they are lost. We must look at the evidence and judge them to be lost based on Biblical truth.

6 And Jesus said to them, “Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” (Matthew 16:6 NASB)

The Greek words for watch is ορατε or horate the finite, plural, Present tense, Imperative mood, and Active voice case of ὁράω or horaō, which means “to discern clearly.” What were the disciples to beware of? The answer is found in Matthew 16:12.

12 Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees. (Matthew 16:12 NASB)

The Greek Word for teaching is διδαχή or didachē. It means instruction or doctrine. The disciples were warned by our Lord to beware of their doctrine. Their doctrine was the evidence that they were lost. Now I know that many believe the doctrine of the Pharisees to be correct, but their problem was their legalism. Those who say this often use this argument to call those who insist on correct Gospel doctrine Pharisees. However, our Lord’s words tell us that their problem was their doctrine not their legalism. They did not hold Orthodox doctrine. Instead, they held heterodox doctrine.

het·er·o·dox
-adjective
1. not in accordance with established or accepted doctrines or opinions, esp. in theology; unorthodox.
2. holding unorthodox doctrines or opinions.
[Origin: 1610–20; < Gk heteródoxos of another opinion, equiv. to hetero- hetero- + dóx(a) opinion (Compare dokeǐn to think, suppose) + -os adj. suffix]
—Related forms
het·er·o·dox·ly, adverb
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

The Pharisees held unorthodox or heterodox doctrine. Jesus also tells us that they worshiped God in vain.

8 ‘ This people honors ME with their lips, But their heart is far away from ME. 9 ‘ But in vain do they worship ME, Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.'” (Matthew 15:8-9 NASB)

These men did worship and appeared to be very worshipful. However, since they held false doctrines they were lost and, therefore, their worship was in vain. Their doctrine was not of the Sacred Scripture, but was the doctrines of men. They emphasized tradition over Biblical commandments. (Matthew 15:6) They did not abide in the doctrine of Christ. (2 John 9) Since their doctrines were of men instead of the Sacred Scripture, they made their judgements on their vain imaginations. If you have ever participated in some “theological discussions” with emergents or liberals then you will recognize that one.

20 So then, you will know them by their fruits. (Matthew 7:20 NASB)

How can we know of what someone’s doctrine consists? Jesus said that we can know this by observing their fruit.

43 For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit. 44 For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush. 45 The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart. (Luke 6:43-45 NASB)

I know that many have not grasped this truth, but our Lord is always right and He says that the fruit is what a person’s mouth speaks because the mouth speaks what is in the heart. Therefore, we can know what the Pharisee’s doctrine consisted of by observing their spoken words from the Bible.

9 And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: (Luke 18:9 NASB)

This passage introduced Jesus’ parable about the tax collector and the Pharisee praying in the temple. He spoke it directly to the Pharisees. The Pharisees relied on themselves for their righteousness. This is self-rightetousness or works-righteousness. They believed that their good works merited them God’s favor. Their doctrine or theology was one of “Do” instead one of trusting in what God has “Done.”

2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. (Romans 10:2-3 NASB)

This description by the Apostle Paul is of all self-righteous Jews, not just the Pharisees. It is also a description of all self-righteous professing Christians who are depending upon their own works to save them instead of trusting in what God has done for them. Zeal for religion based in the knowledge of false doctrine is nothing but an abomination to God. According to this passage we see what the missing piece is in all “Pharisee’s” doctrine. What is it? They are ignorant of the necessity of submitting to God’s righteousness nor do they know anything of grace. Where can we learn of God’s righteousness?

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “ But the righteous man shall live by faith.” (Romans 1:16-17 NASB)

21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:21-26 NASB)

People who are ignorant of God’s righteousness cannot submit to it. Therefore, they go about establishing a righteousness of their own. This is why we stress the Sovereignty of God so much here. This why I try to end each piece I write with either “SDG” or “Soli Deo Gloria.” This is why we must come to terms with God’s righteousness if we are ever going to grow in Christlikeness and become Spirit-filled. Only those who walk by faith are obedient in their submission to God’s righteousness for every deed done in the flesh is sin.

This is also why we must learn proper doctrine such as Salvation is by Grace through Faith. We are justified by faith alone, apart from works. Through this we learn that the righteousness which saves us is imputed to us. It is Christ’s righteousness, not our own. If we take this to heart we will not view our salvation as a correct decision, but instead, we see it for the miracle it is. This changes everything in how we serve Him. How can we be self-righteous if our salvation was entirely by Grace?

As many of you know, I grew up as a Southern Baptist. I was a Deacon in two SBC churches, one in Oklahoma and the other in Kansas. I was a Bible teacher as well. In 2004-2005 I underwent a theology overhaul by God. The end result of that was that my theology become subject to the Sovereignty of God. I finally came to understand that salvation is God’s work from beginning to end. Through this understanding I looked back at all those years in the SBC and it made me weep. Why? Much of the SBC culture is one of “Do” instead of being built around what God has “Done.” The emphasis is on “a changed life” instead of the Sovereignty of God.

I remember the countless Deacon meetings where it seemed that all we ever did was to strategize how to get the pew sitters busy. The evidence of salvation we looked for in people was how busy they were because of how God had impacted their lives. Of course, now I know that regeneration makes Christians New Creations who have a faith that is alive. This enables them to not sin if they walk by this faith. Instead of looking for this “change” we looked for how religious people were.

Phariseeism is the Religion of Do or Works-Righteousness. Christians in bondage to this will view their salvation in the context of a decision. They will attempt to live this out by being as religious as possible. Of course, unless they are regenerate and have the Holy Spirit, they will eventually stumble. Some will remain religious of course, but without the supernatural power of a regenerate heart, saving faith, and The Holy Spirit they will find their own righteousness instead of possessing Christ’s Righteousness. This is confusing sanctification with justification. Justification is a declaration by God of not-guilty on our behalf. Sanctification is the process whereby Christians are conformed unto the image of Christ as they abide in Christ. Those in the Religion of Works-Righteousness attempt to sanctify themselves by being religious. They believe their “works” merit them favor from God. It is no different than what the Pharisees did in Christ’s day.

Undoubtedly there are some genuine Christians enslaved to the Religion of Works-Righteousness. I was one. I pray that God will draw them out of it into the light. We must not condemn, but pray for and share the truth with them. It is not being Pharisaical to tell the truth.

Soli Deo Gloria!



TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS: lent; sacrifice; works
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To: boatbums; trebb; RnMomof7
those who imagine the works they do contribute to their justification or that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ was insufficient to save us to the uttermost.

The question is not whether we "contribute to our justification." Nor is it whether "the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is sufficient." The question is whether Jesus' sacrifice saves us with working faith or non-working faith.

Let me illustrate with a question:

What save the firstborn of the Israelites in Egypt?
A. The sacrifice of the lamb
B. The work of putting the blood on the doorpost
C. Both
D. Neither

Which element was unnecessary?
A. The sacrifice of the lamb
B. The work of putting the blood on the doorpost
C. Both
D. Neither

What say you?

Genuine, life-changing faith WILL result in good deeds, but these deeds cannot and DO NOT save us.

You're absolutely right that good deeds do not save us. Those works of obedience are what make a saving faith. Without them, whatever "faith" one may claim is as dead as a corpse.

Let's take baptism, for instance - since it's the "work" commanded by God that's most often objected to on FR. Not only is it commanded by God, but it is assigned a purpose by Him. Without it, faith accomplishes no more in us than would have been accomplished at Jericho without the marching.

The marching was faith in action for Joshua and the Israelites, just as baptism is faith in action for the believer. For the Israelites, that working faith did what non-working faith couldn't, and the walls came tumblin' down. For the believer, working faith does what non-working faith cannot: it kills and buries the sin-slave, and resurrects a free man (Romans 6), it washes away sins (Acts 22), it's where Jesus performs the life-saving heart surgery (Colossians 2), etc.

So you see, the question is not whether works of obedience to God justify us, but whether they make a justifying faith, a perfected faith, a living faith, a fruitful faith. Because without that kind of faith, with any other kind of "faith" one may claim, the sacrifice of the Son - sufficient as it is - avails us nothing.
81 posted on 02/20/2015 4:30:03 PM PST by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: Zuriel

“But, my concern is the usage of epistle verses (written to people who already know how to be born again) to preach salvation, while ignoring the commandments of the Lord for conversion, which are found in his commissions, and in the instructions given in Acts 2:38.”

Acts 11:16 -

“Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.”

Rom 10:10 -

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”


82 posted on 02/20/2015 5:10:38 PM PST by ScottfromNJ
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To: ScottfromNJ

**Acts 11:16 -“Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.”**

True, the Lord baptizes with the Holy Ghost. As His commissions prove, He commanded his disciples to baptize in water, in His name for the remission of sins. Which is why upon immediately seeing the Holy Ghost poured out on the Gentiles, Peter HAD to baptize them. Neither he, nor any one else could withstand the Lord’s ordinance, saying, “can any man forbid water”, and then baptizing them “in the name of the Lord” (Acts 10:48)

**Rom 10:10 -For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”**

That is a condensed statement. Just like John 3:16 is a condensed statement that follows the Lord’s detailed command of rebirth (3:3,5-8), so is Romans 10:10. Because the Roman saints already knew the details of rebirth:

Rms 6:3; “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?”
4. “Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:....” (That’s certainly not Spirit baptism, because the Spirit is life.) “..that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the GLORY of the FATHER, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”
5 “For if we have been planted together in the LIKENESS of his death, we shall be also in the LIKENESS of his resurrection.”

“But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being THEN made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.” 6:17,18

How about trying this example to see if your way is thorough: You KNOW that there is a place called Crater Lake. You’ve heard a lot about it, even seen photos. Let me see you get there from NJ, with out ANY directions (verbal, maps, gps or compass), without reading any signs, and only driving at night (yeah, you can use headlights).

Well, that’s what quoting Acts 16:31 and Romans 10:10 is like when not expounding the truth to the lost: sending someone down the road to a destination, but no details on how to get there. That’s what I had for 28 yrs in a Calvinist church.

Acts 2:38 is the road map to rebirth. Is it from heaven, or of men?


83 posted on 02/20/2015 6:55:28 PM PST by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....Do you believe it?)
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To: Zuriel

“True, the Lord baptizes with the Holy Ghost. As His commissions prove, He commanded his disciples to baptize in water, in His name for the remission of sins. Which is why upon immediately seeing the Holy Ghost poured out on the Gentiles, Peter HAD to baptize them. Neither he, nor any one else could withstand the Lord’s ordinance, saying, “can any man forbid water”, and then baptizing them “in the name of the Lord” (Acts 10:48)”

Peter’s realization of true baptism in Acts 11:16 comes after Acts 10:47-48.


84 posted on 02/20/2015 7:44:04 PM PST by ScottfromNJ
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To: LearsFool
The question is not whether we "contribute to our justification." Nor is it whether "the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is sufficient." The question is whether Jesus' sacrifice saves us with working faith or non-working faith.

But that IS what you are implying whether you realize it or not. We are saved by grace through faith apart from our works. I can show you dozens of Bible passages that say exactly that. In your illustrations you give, the answer is obvious that faith is demonstrated by what we do/our works. The Israelites, by their actions, exhibited that they had faith in God's promises. That is how a genuine faith behaves. When Abraham willingly put Isaac upon the altar in obedience to God, he did so trusting that God was able to STILL fulfill His promises of making of his seed a great nation. Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead... (Heb. 11:19)

Read Hebrews chapter 11 and you will see ample proof that genuine, soul-saving faith is the kind that brings forth fruit - is demonstrated in action. But, the question to you is, did the works these men and women do contribute to their justification? Or, was it by their faith they were justified? God said it was their faith. And that is what has been repeatedly defended here with good reason because it is what God says. We can claim no glory or boast of our works in the plan of salvation. ALL the glory goes to God, we can claim none of it. We are saved by grace through faith and kept saved by that same grace. Grace is undeserved, unmerited, unearned favor. It is freely given to us through Christ and we receive it by faith. AFTER that, then the Holy Spirit works in us to bring us into conformity with Christ.

    Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls. (I Peter 1:3-9)

85 posted on 02/20/2015 9:01:13 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: ScottfromNJ

**Peter’s realization of true baptism in Acts 11:16 comes after Acts 10:47-48.**

Whaaat?, you think that when the Holy Ghost fell on Cornelius and his household, Peter didn’t realize that it was from God, UNTIL after he baptized them in the name of the Lord for the remission of sins. He had already seen the Holy Ghost fall on thousands by that point, and you appear to have him in a state of dementia while preaching to Cornelius. That is WHY he commanded them to be baptized; he and the others had just witnessed the Spirit given. He HAD to step in and command their sins be remitted (see John 20:23).

So do you believe that Spirit baptism is “true baptism”, and water baptism in the name of Jesus is man-made? If that’s your interpretation, you’ve just declared Acts 2:38 to not be from heaven, but of men. And you seem to have dismissed these as well:

John 3:5-8; a man must be born of the water and of the Spirit, and how you KNOW when they are.
Matt. 28:19; the Lord commanded that THEY baptize souls.
Mark 16:16; The Lord commanded to his disciples that one must believe and be baptized.
Luke 24:47; The Lord commanded that repentance and remission of sins are to be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
John 20:23; The Lord commanded that whose soever sins YE remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins YE retain, they are retained.

Furthermore, with your interpretation, Peter should have gotten a hold of Philip, and told him to quit performing anymore water baptisms. He failed to stop Paul from baptizing everywhere he went.

Every anti-water baptism teacher scrurries to 1Cor, 1:17, to say Paul didn’t baptize, when he just got done admitting to it. And from that we understand that he wasn’t sent to perform John’s baptism unto repentance. Because Paul DID personally baptize, and even re-baptized 12 in Ephesus, that had only been baptized unto John’s baptism. And one can argue that he had a hand in these as well:

9:18 His own conversion.
16:15 Lydia and her household.
16:33 keeper of the prison and his household.
18:8 Crispus (one of several Paul admitted to baptizing in Corinth. 1Cor 1:14,16)
22:16 His own again.

1Peter 3:20,21 is quite plain,.... 20 “...eight souls were saved by water.” 21 “The LIKE figure whereunto even BAPTISM doth also now save us (not the butting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God.) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

Good conscience?...Yes, by being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. Just don’t do it if you don’t believe it.

Surely you won’t tell me that Acts 2:38 is a lie. Pray about this.....it’s very serious.


86 posted on 02/20/2015 9:22:41 PM PST by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....Do you believe it?)
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To: LearsFool

But why did Naaman go in the water?


87 posted on 02/20/2015 9:25:41 PM PST by redleghunter (He expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself. Lk24)
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To: boatbums

excellent


88 posted on 02/21/2015 8:06:56 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: boatbums

**We are saved by grace through faith apart from our works.**

As long as we are in these physical bodies, one simply can’t simply can’t claim faith without a physical sign. Look, your desire for displayed faith without having faith displayed, is not seen in many of the miracles the Lord.

Let’s just look in Matthew for a few examples:

8:5-13 “There CAME unto him a centurion, BESEECHING him..”..you know the rest, where Jesus says. “..I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel”.

9:2 “They BROUGHT unto him a man sick of the palsy.....and Jesus SEEING their faith....”.

9:21 The woman with the issue of blood: “If I may but TOUCH his garment......Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole”.

15:21-28 The Canaanite woman: “..CAME she, and WORSHIPPED....., “Truth Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their master’s table. Then Jesus answwered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith...”.

Need I list more?

And when did God first commend Abraham for his faith?...Gen. 15:6...AFTER he had obeyed the call, moving his entire entourage several hundred miles (the hard way), built altars, paid tithes to Mechizedek.

**When Abraham willingly put Isaac upon the altar in obedience to God, he did so trusting that God was able to STILL fulfill His promises of making of his seed a great nation. Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead... (Heb. 11:19)**

That’s right. God expects you to PROVE your faith: “Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for NOW I KNOW that thou fearest God...”. Gen. 22:12

Sure, God KNOWS what someone will do, BUT he expects you to PROVE your faith. He wants YOU to KNOW that without obedience, you are NOT displaying faith to him.

I believe that by being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, per his instructions, HE does indeed remit them. It’s the power of his name in baptism. That is why I obeyed Acts 2:38


89 posted on 02/21/2015 8:44:02 AM PST by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....Do you believe it?)
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To: LearsFool; boatbums; trebb; RnMomof7
>>Let me illustrate with a question:<<

You've tried that before and it still isn't going to work for you. I'll remind you of the answer by referring you here

>>Those works of obedience are what make a saving faith.<<

Wrong. That's completely backwards. It's a saving faith that produces works.

>>The marching was faith in action for Joshua and the Israelites, just as baptism is faith in action for the believer.<<

Once again see the link above. It seems that Catholic reasoning is always built on a false premise.

90 posted on 02/21/2015 8:52:43 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: taxcontrol

And thankfully, both are forgivable. I know of no one who has or practices perfect faith in grace. Each of us must rely on God’s gift to make it through.


91 posted on 02/21/2015 9:15:29 AM PST by CityCenter (Breathe, Focus, Execute)
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To: boatbums

**(I Peter 1:3-9)**

Written to people ALREADY born again:

1 Peter 1:2: “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto OBEDIENCE and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ...”.

1Peter 3:20,21 “...eight souls were saved by water. The LIKE figure whereunto even BAPTISM doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God.) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

Good conscience?...Yes, by being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. Just don’t do it if you don’t believe it.


92 posted on 02/21/2015 9:22:44 AM PST by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....Do you believe it?)
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To: boatbums
I notice you didn't answer the two questions I put to you. Why is that? They're multiple choice, so all you need to do is give the letters. It only takes a couple of keystrokes. :-)

Yes, I've seen people cite the "not of works" Scriptures to try and prove that God expects only faith. The trouble is a confusion as to what "works" means in the various places the Bible writers used the term.

Since Abraham was justified by faith after working, James concludes that his works made his faith perfect. And it was his perfected, working faith that justified him:

"Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect; and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God. Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith." - James 2:22-24

Does James' understanding of works conflict with Paul's? No, Paul is speaking of different sort of works in many passages. And so are you when you say, "We are saved by grace through faith apart from our works."

What I'm trying to get you to focus on is the role works play in faith. It's not that they "contribute to our justification", as you put it. It's that they make our faith a justifying faith.

It's impossible to separate this sort of faith from works. Read James 2 again. To say that this faith exists separate from works is an error. The only faith that exists separate from works is the dead faith such as the devils have. Is that what you have? Or do you have a working faith?
93 posted on 02/21/2015 9:44:19 AM PST by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: redleghunter
But why did Naaman go in the water?

Because he had faith - faith that God would heal his leprosy if he did.

Why don't people go in the water today? Don't they have faith that God will heal their iniquities if they do?
94 posted on 02/21/2015 9:49:23 AM PST by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: LearsFool
The cross of Christ fulfilled the OT types ..HE is the sacrificed lamb, He is the Priest that that offered the sacrifice

The funny thing is Catholics miss the type in placing the blood over the doorpost ..

95 posted on 02/21/2015 9:50:33 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: CynicalBear; boatbums; trebb; RnMomof7
It's a saving faith that produces works.

Yes, indeed. And it's works that produce a saving faith:

"Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect; and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God. Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith." - James 2:22-24

Rather than continue with confusing answers to my two simple questions, you could just give us the letters (A, B, C, D, or E) so that your opinion about faith and works at Jericho will be plain. That would help the discussion, and be an improvement over the single answer you gave ("The answer to both of those is faith.") in which you say faith was both necessary and unnecessary(!).

Or, since it seems you don't enjoy the challenge of simple questions, I'll make it less painful by posing just one:

Would the walls of Jericho have fallen without the marching?
A. Yes
B. No
96 posted on 02/21/2015 10:04:31 AM PST by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: RnMomof7
Catholics miss a lot of things. :-)

Perhaps you have the answers to those two simple questions? If so, there are several people in this discussion who would no doubt appreciate your help with them.
97 posted on 02/21/2015 10:07:49 AM PST by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: LearsFool; boatbums; trebb; RnMomof7
>> And it's works that produce a saving faith:<<

Works produce a saving faith??? In what alternate universe? God instils faith, faith produces works. Any other wording is twisting the words of God.

>>Would the walls of Jericho have fallen without the marching?<<

It is written

Hebrews 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

98 posted on 02/21/2015 10:23:25 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: CynicalBear
You didn't answer the question. Please tell us, why won't you answer the question?

Since you like to demand other people answer your questions ("You answer the questions I posed here first.") you clearly aren't opposed to questioning others.

So I'll ask again:

Would the walls of Jericho have fallen without the marching?
A. Yes
B. No

Little children in Sunday School know the answer. Let's see whether you do.
99 posted on 02/21/2015 10:55:30 AM PST by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: CynicalBear; boatbums; trebb; RnMomof7

Sorry, I forgot to ping the other people you wanted to hear your answer to the question.


100 posted on 02/21/2015 11:02:44 AM PST by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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