Posted on 03/23/2015 2:14:57 PM PDT by RnMomof7
Wrong on all three counts. You have been told the truth repeatedly - there have been numerous RECENT threads showing the Early Church Fathers' teachings - and reject it at your own risk. Have a good day
Just consider this for a moment...when we ask other believers to pray for us or our loved ones (as many of us did for you when you were in need recently), we are really asking them to not only join us in our beseeching of our Lord, we are enjoining them to the blessings that come from answered prayer. Such participation with each other and our common needs help to build that communion of the saints (each and every believer). However, asking the dead saints to intercede for us must presuppose two things - that they are somehow cognizant of what we are each going through in this time and place and that they are able to take these requests before the throne of grace and know what is God's perfect will for each and every one of us and each and every one of our requests. We have to assume they have heard us and delivered our request - without ever having heard, seen, touched or experienced their existence.
I can see quite clearly the purpose God has for why He encourages us to pray for one another IN THIS LIFE. We are part of each other's lives and ministries and share in the joys and sorrows as we walk together in fellowship with other believers and our Lord and Savior. Our faith is strengthened and grows as we see answered prayer and our lives interchange as we grow together in faith. But...praying to the dead gives us no such encouragement or fellowship. We don't see, hear or touch those who have died - we can only HOPE they can do these things - and we have to presume they hear us and can intercede for us with no feedback from which to know we have gotten through. I don't see how that encourages us or builds our faith - especially when such prayers are NOT answered in the way we request.
Since we all agree it is Almighty God who ultimately answers our prayers - and His power IS omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent - how is invoking the dead in Christ and involving them in this process any more desirable or necessary than asking the living in Christ for the same need? Do they communicate with us and let us know our request has been heard? Do they have some special "IN" or influence before God that our brothers and sisters in Christ don't have? Is God a respecter of persons even though He says He is not?
To me, what this boils down to is the benefit of prayer and who it is that truly deserves ALL the glory and praise. It cannot be humans - dead or living - but God alone who is worthy of praise. We must obey Him and follow His commands regarding how and to whom we are to pray. We have His sacred word to guide us and Jesus' example was that we pray to our Father in heaven and not to any other. It is to Him that we entrust all our hopes, needs and desires because He knows our needs before we even ask. Having fellow believers join with us in specific prayer requests joins us in faith and love for one another in this life and we rejoice as we see our God working in our lives to conform us ever closer to the image of Christ.
Yet that work has an Imprimatur and nihil obstat - terms that mean:
The grant of imprimatur is normally preceded by a favourable declaration (known as a nihil obstat) by a person who has the knowledge, orthodoxy and prudence necessary for passing a judgement about the absence from the publication of anything that would "harm correct faith or good morals". In canon law such a person is known as a censor or sometimes as a censor librorum (Latin for "censor of books"). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imprimatur)
I haven't seen anything "official" that removes that designation to the work.
Mary was told how it was going to be. Nobody asked her anything.
In prot twisted logic you just turned God into a rapist. Congratulations on one of the stupidest statements I have ever read.
Another prot whistling past the graveyard.
Fixed it for you.
Actually it's on you because you've created doctrine and practices without precedent in the Word of God. Not only is it not there but there are warnings about speaking with the dead.
That's a good one. I was thinking of OT warnings against speaking with the dead or other ceremonies for the dead. When the Lord says to do A and B and you decide to do A, B, C, D, E, and F, you are creating religion. Man has a very nasty habit of doing that as the bible says over and over.
Actually one is creating doctrine which is worse.
Nope, that is only twisted Catholic logic that it would ever occur to someone to call it that.
That kind of thought never entered my mind, but it has clearly entered the minds of numerous Catholics based on the number of times I’ve seen that referred to.
It gives quite a bit of insight to the mind that would think that way.
I pity you and will pray that you come out of what ever has damaged you so badly.
So show where God asked her permission.
God is rather clear throughout the Old Testament about not communicating with the dead. He was also rather clear about not incorporating pagan worship practices in the worship of Him. Catholics have ignored all of that.
Protestants sometimes object to the term, “Protestant,” preferring the label, “Christian,” instead.
But their Christianity seems to consist almost entirely of protesting against Catholic doctrines and practices.
Perhaps it’s because “we’re not Catholic!” is the only doctrine all Protestants agree on, except for “Sola Scriptura.”
And to add to the irony, that tradition of Luther isn’t found in the Bible.
So I suppose if you’re anti-Catholic and adhere to Luther’s teachings, Protestantism is for you.
As for us Catholics, we will “listen to the church,” “the pillar and foundation of truth,” as Christ commanded.
This question has been answered at least 100 times, and If I thought that any of you prots would: A) Actually understand it or
B) pay attention to the answer I would gladly waste my breath again.
But seeing as it has not had the desired effects previously I will save my breath for something really important.
The Queen of Heaven thing really stands out as "In Your face" to God.
I've noticed you "save your breath" rather consistently when it comes to scripture.
I notice prots say a lot of really stupid things when it comes to scripture.
It really does doesn't it? The one that really stands out to me is the total disregard to God's commands when it comes to incorporating pagan practices. This is what God says.
Deuteronomy 12:30 and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, "How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same." 31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God:
But here's what Catholics say.
The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison, are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church.[Cardinal Newman - Development of Christian Doctrine, pg 373]
1 Corinthians 12:21
"And the eye cannot say to the hand: I need not thy help; nor again the head to the feet: I have no need of you."
Jesus also gives us a warning against considering those who have gone on before us, dead. (Mark 12:26-27) - "Have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”
Indeed you are badly mistaken if you think that the faithful holy ones who have gone on before us are now NOT living members of the Body of Christ and are LESS able to care for us and intercede for us than they were when they lived on this earth! It's a real head-scratcher.
It is not true that Scripture forbids us communicating with anyone who has gone on before us. Scripture does forbid particular methods of attempting to contact them, such as divination and necromancy. Deuteronomy 18:10-11:
"There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer"
Here we see Deuteronomy condemning the practice of divination, and forbids the use of any medium to contact the dead. Sorcery is condemned.
Divination and necromancy are means of attempted fortune-telling by conjuring spirits (either of those who have died, or demon spirits) by preternatural means. Catholics do not conjure up spirits as in a seance, or ask them to predict the future or use any preternatural means. Catholics ask for their help in praying to God for us. Yes, we pray to God directly, but we ask for assistance as well.
A most significant Scripture which shows that communication with specific people who have died is not sinful, is the example of our Lord Himself. Matt. 19:1-4:
" And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain apart. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his garments became white as light. And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Eli'jah, talking with him. And Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is well that we are here; if you wish, I will make three booths here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Eli'jah."
Jesus absolutely affirms that these who have gone on before --- Moses and Elijah, like Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob --- are alive in Him. Do you actually think that Moses and Elijah are "dead"? Jesus says (Mark 12:24-27)
"You know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God... You are very much mistaken."
It's interesting that Peter witnessed this communication with the "dead" --- with Moses and Elijah--- and went on, himself, to communicate with the dead, as we see in Acts 10, a person by the name of Tabitha who had died.
"Acts 9:37-41: In those days she [Tabitha] fell sick and died...But Peter put them all [mourners] outside and knelt down and prayed; then turning to the body he said, "Tabitha, rise." And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up. And he gave her his hand and lifted her up. Then calling the saints and widows he presented her alive."Tabitha was a dead person. Laid out for burial. If Peter was forbidden to‘communicate’ with the dead, he could never have spoken to the dead Tabitha. But he did speak to her; and Almighty God honored that communication by raising Tabitha. If it was a sin, God would not have let Peter be an instrument in raising Tabitha up.
Understanding this, it has been the constant practice of the Holy Church to pray with, and to ask the prayers of, those who have gone on before us.
Far be it from us, this bitter skepticism of the Church, the Body of Christ, the millions of faithful Christians through all the centuries --- a skepticism which is found abundantly on this thread, as on so many others. We are to listen to the Church:
"If they refuse to listen even to the Church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector."
I daresay it's not just the Catholic Church if you want to see it in a Western, jurisdictional sense, but all the Churches, founded by Apostles, from the cradle-lands of the faith on three continents (Asia, Africa and Europe), and continuously without a break for 2,000 years. I'm speaking of even those who are not in communion either with Rome or Constantinople--- the Copts and Ethiopian Church in Africa, the Assyrian Church of the East, the Nestorians, as well as the Eastern Orthodox, as well as those who are in communion with Rome, the Aramaic-speaking Melkites and Maronites, the Chaldeans and the rest. They all pray this way, with reference to Mary and the other Saints as intercessors, and they all have always prayed this way.
Frankly, my jaw drops when I realize that there are people who think that ALL these ancient Christian communities have been ALL wrong, ALL the time, from the inscriptions on the catacombs ("Ora pro nobis") until now! As if a true faith were only restored when all the customs, heritage and culture of Christendom had been split and wrecked, some 1500 years after the Ascension of Our Lord.
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