It has STARTED!!!!
Posted on 09/13/2015 7:37:14 AM PDT by UnwashedPeasant
Millions of investors concerned about the Shemitah cycle are watching stock markets and economies in these dark days of September.
Will the Dow crash, they wonder, like it did in the past two Shemitah years, 2001 and 2008, or will the dollar collapse and take the U.S. economy down with it?
Not Mark Biltz.
The founder and pastor of El Shaddai Ministries is watching for something much bigger.
The start of the Tribulation.
Biltz, author of “Blood Moons: Decoding the Imminent Heavenly Signs,” is not predicting that the Tribulation will start with the beginning of a new seven-year cycle at sundown on Sunday, Sept. 13. But if it doesn’t start, then he says it likely won’t for at least another seven years.
That’s because God operates according to seasons that follow the biblical Old Testament feast days, he said.
“The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is trying to get the attention of the entire world, and His people in particular, of the need to get on His calendar cycle.
One of the ways He does that is through signs in the heavens, including lunar and solar eclipses, which of course have to do with calendars. A total lunar eclipse or “blood moon” occurs on Sept. 28, which is the Feast of Tabernacles. It’s the last of four blood moons, all falling on Jewish feast days, over the past 18 months, a rare “tetrad” of lunar eclipses.
And it’s not like one has to search very long for signs that the Tribulation could be about to commence. Read here how Christians are being slaughtered across the world while the historically Christian nations of Europe and America ignore their cries, jumping instead to take in Muslim migrants and thousands of potential jihadist enemies.
(Excerpt) Read more at wnd.com ...
;)
“In 1 Thess.5:4 Paul writes that the Church is removed before the day of darkness so that the Day of the Lord will not overtake them like a thief in the night.”
The Church will be removed when the Lord comes like a thief, and likewise the Day of the Lord will come like a thief. The rapture is an event which marks the beginning of the time period called the Day of the Lord / Day of Christ / Day of Salvation / Day of Wrath. For us who believe it is a day of Christ and Salvation. For unbelievers it is a day of judgment and wrath. For all it is the day (i.e. time period) when God alone is exalted and is thus the Day of the Lord. Both the Day of the Lord and Christ’s return are described as “coming as a thief”, but only for those who are unprepared, sleeping, not watching for Christ’s return.
“The Thessalonians already had an understanding concerning the future Day of the Lord BEFORE Paul wrote 1 Thessalonians to them (v. 2),... but they were ignorant concerning the Rapture of the Church before receiving this letter (4:13-18)..... This indicates that the Rapture was NOT part of the subject of the Day of the Lord and therefore will be a different event from the Day of the Lord.”
Premise is correct. Conclusion is wrong. The Day of the Lord is foretold in the Old Testament. The rapture of living saints was a mystery until it was revealed to and through Paul. The question is answered here as to what will happen to those believers who are still alive when Christ returns. The rapture is an event. The Day of the Lord is a time period with many events. The rapture happens first and marks the beginning of the Day of the Lord. It is like when God reigned fire upon Sodom. This did not begin until the angels escorted Lot and his family out of that place. It will be like this when Christ returns. Believers will be taken out and God will pour out fire from Heaven. The passage you referenced is immediately followed by this one:
1 Thessalonians 5:1-11
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.
The Thessalonians knew before the first epistle that there would be a Day in which God will pour out His wrath on the earth. They knew Christ would return in connection with this day. They knew believers would be raised from the dead. They did not know what would happen to believers who were alive when Christ returned. This passage clearly connects the rapture with the Day of the Lord as does second Thessalonians.
“After Paul left Thessalonica some false teachers came in teaching a post-tribulational doctrine and stated that believers were now in the tribulation. That the day of God’s wrath was upon them, that they had missed the rapture, but Paul corrects this with the 2nd letter. If this were true certain signs would be present...”
The erroneous teaching was that the Day of Christ rather than the Great Tribulation had arrived. If the Day of the Lord were present then certain signs would have ALREADY happened - a very important distinction. These signs happen first. They do not happen during the Day of the Lord.
2 Thessalonians 2:2-3
not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition...
“Instead they would have welcomed the Great Tribulation as a necessary component prior to the second coming. “
The Thessalonians were going through tremendous tribulation when Paul wrote this letter.
2 Thessalonians 1:4
so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure
Tribulations and persecutions are among the specific signs prior to the Day of the Lord and Christ’s return. The Thessalonians were confusing tribulation with God’s wrath, something Paul told them they would escape. Paul corrects the error by distinguishing what they were experiencing from the Day of the Lord and giving them specific signs that must occur prior to the Day of the Lord and had not been fulfilled at that time. These include the falling away and the revealing of anti-Christ.
“Not one Old Testament passage on the tribulation refers to the church “
Like the rapture of living saints, the Church was also a mystery not revealed fully in the Old Testament.
Ephesians 5:32
This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Ephesians 3:4-6
by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ, which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel
Incidentally, Paul does not describe the Restrainer of anti-Christ as part of any mystery that had been hidden and was now being revealed. They KNEW who the Restrainer was. His identity was revealed in the Old Testament within the context of the passage Paul cites here concerning the abomination of desolation. Anti-Christ and the abomination of desolation were taught in the Old Testament and elaborated on by Christ (Mt. Olivet discourse) and the apostles. In Daniel 12, the identity of the Restrainer is revealed. Consequently Paul did not need to tell the Thessalonians who the Restrainer is, nor does he tell us because it is not new revelation.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-8
... and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
How can you reconcile the above passage with your view of the timing of the rapture? Is this passage referring to the rapture of the Church? If not then how is it the Thessalonians are to enter into rest at that time? If it is the rapture, how is it that this happens when He is revealed with flaming fire for vengeance on His enemies?
I will not give you a platform for teaching this stuff....and I do not have the time to go further with you on this...sufficient are my posts thus stated...Further there are others who have certainly attempted to correct your errors already and have.
Thank you for the discussion this far...but I do find it difficult engaging with those who have a ‘superior’ opinion of themselves over other true Christians...The foot of the cross is on level ground...for all.
If you are trying to refer to Michael as the restrainer, Daniel twelve states that Michael stands up and delivers the Jews. This is not ‘taken out of the way’ as 2 Thess 2 refers to ... the Holy Spirit restrains sin in those who profess Jesus as Lord and Savior. The Holy Spirit during the Church Age indwells believers. That work will stop when the restraint on the lawless ends at the start of the Tribulation. Michael the Archangel is not the restrainer who is taken out of the way so that the lawless may be revealed.
“I do find it difficult engaging with those who have a ‘superior’ opinion of themselves over other true Christians”
I do not consider myself superior to you or anyone else on this forum. If anything I assume I am less deserving than most. It does not change what is right or wrong.
I had this discussion with another Freeper months ago. He made some strong points and recommended a pre-trip book which was written as an answer to the pre-wrath viewpoint and delved deeply into the meaning of “the day of the Lord”. I bought the book. I read it. I studied the scriptures as presented.
I am willing to be corrected. Getting angry and insulting me is not going to win an argument. If you don’t have the time to discuss, so be it. I don’t have much myself.
At this point it is clear to me. Those who refuse to listen are going to be in for a tough surprise when things don’t go as they expect. And if I am wrong, I will be happy to find out Christ is coming sooner rather than later. You can tell me you told me so on the way up. It won’t hurt my feelings. I promise.
No amount of reasoning may persuade you, but when you see the seven-year treaty signed; when you see wars, natural disasters, disease, and famine; when you see the abomination of desolation and severe persecution of Christians, reconsider and persevere to the Day of the Lord. It will immediately follow the signs in the Heavens.
Tough times are coming, but believers will not go through God’s wrath.
“Thank you for the discussion this far”
Thank you as well. I am sorry I came across as condescending to you or other Christians. I will work on my tone in future discussions of this sort and try to be more respectful.
“Daniel twelve states that Michael stands up and delivers the Jews.”
Michael is the prince who guards Israel. You are correct about this passage referring to protecting the Jews.
Michael is standing for them right now:
Daniel 12:1b
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people
Something happens at the beginning of this verse:
Daniel 12:1a
At that time Michael shall stand up
Question: How does someone stand up when he is already standing?
The phrase here can mean to stand up. It can also mean to stand aside or stand still. Contextually, that is what it means.
The Hebrew word there is “amad”. Here are some examples of it being used to mean to stand aside or stand still:
Job 32:16
they...stood still [amad], and answered no more
Nehemiah 8:5
Ezra opened the book. All the people could see him because he was standing above them; and as he opened it, the people all stood up [arose and kept quiet or stood still].
2 Samuel 18:30
The king said, “Stand aside and wait here.” So he stepped aside and stood there.
Michael is restraining now. He will continue to restrain until he stands aside.
Daniel 10:21
But I will show you that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holds with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
What does the word “holds” (Hebrew, chazaq) mean? According to Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the word can mean “to bind” or “restrain.”
Question: When does Michael stand aside in Daniel 12:1?
The verse begins by referencing a specific time. Looking back into chapter 11 and also comparing what follows, we can see plainly that the time is exactly at the beginning of the Great Tribulation. It is the second three-and-a-half year half of Daniel’s seventieth week.
What else happens at this exact time? The abomination of desolation. What else? Satan is kicked out of Heaven. Who kicks him out? Michael.
Revelation 12:7-9
And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Continuing in the same chapter we see this timing matches.
Second Thessalonians alludes to Daniel 9-12 when referring to the anti-Christ and how he is revealed. This revealing happens at the abomination of desolation at the exact middle of the seventieth week.
Currently the struggle over Israel is happening in Heavenly places. Satan is going to be kicked out and his attacks against Israel (the woman) will continue here, but Israel will continue to receive Divine protection.
The context of Paul’s writing of 2 Thessalonians 2 with reference to the “lawless one” is anti-Christ entering the Jewish temple in the middle of the seven-year treaty protecting Israel, and breaking the treaty, defiling the temple, setting up his throne in the temple, and proclaiming himself to be God. This will happen in Jerusalem. And he will attack the Jews living there.
So Michael being the prince who guards Israel is quite relevant to the context of 2 Thessalonians 2 and the safety and security of the Jews.
“2 Thess 2 refers to ... the Holy Spirit restrains sin in those who profess Jesus as Lord and Savior. The Holy Spirit during the Church Age indwells believers. That work will stop when the restraint on the lawless ends at the start of the Tribulation.”
The Holy Spirit will not be taken away during this time.
Acts 2:14-21
But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.’ ...”
The Holy Spirit was poured out on Pentecost and will continue His work during the last days up until the Day of the Lord according to the passage Peter cited. Particularly, he mentions this in connection with the signs in the sky which immediately precede the Day of the Lord.
I did not say the Holy Spirit would be taken away. A number so great no man can number it will come out of the Tribulation into Heaven, so the Holy Spirit seal will still be applied to the believing heart, even when the tribulum must be applied to harvest 'the fruit'. BUT, during the Church Age the Holy Spirit is indwelling believers. During the Tribulation the Bride is gone from the Earth. I read that to mean that the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit will be no more with men, but He will still be here sealing the spirit of believers who show up in Heaven as shown in the Revelation of John.
Again, thanks so much for your clear explanation.
I hope I do not come across too aggressively or as a know-it-all. I grew up and have always been part of churches where a pre-trib rapture was taught. I began to question this as I studied the Bible for myself but could never quite make sense of what I found.
The pre-trib view makes perfect sense as to its internal consistency and also has a way of explaining almost every passage. Unfortunately, I have found that outside of showing how Daniel’s seventieth week is the final seven years before God sets up His kingdom on earth, there is little systematic teaching that leads to a pre-trib view. That is, it is supported anecdotally and with proof texts. This is not how sound doctrine is arrived at.
Someone gave me a copy of a book by Marv Rosenthal who had before been a leading champion of the pre-trib view but changed his view to what he called the pre-wrath rapture. While not every single facet of his teaching on this fits perfectly for me, the overall big picture relationship between the rapture, Daniel’s seventieth week, and the Day of the Lord came into clear view for me.
My studies since then have been much more fruitful.
For what it’s worth, I believe those who come out of the great tribulation in Revelation 7 are the final generation of believers when the rapture occurs. I believe this group is made up of Christians who are alive when Christ returns. He returns when the Great Tribulation ends. (But this is NOT the same as the end of Daniel’s seventieth week or of the judgments of Revelation as the traditional pre-trib view espouses.) Every eye will see Him, and unbelieving Israel will for the first time as a nation fully turn to God with her whole heart and be saved.
I believe that the “church age” or dispensation of God’s superabounding grace will extend into Daniel’s seventieth week, past the abomination of desolation in the middle, through the Great Tribulation which will be cut short by the rapture and Israel’s national repentance, at which point Daniel’s seventieth week will continue through the period known as the Day of the Lord in which God will pour out His wrath on the world, defeat His enemies and set up His eternal kingdom. Christ will return to earth with His bride and rule from new Jerusalem for a thousand years.
The practical takeaway from this, if correct, is that Christians should anticipate going through tribulation and even the Great One before entering into the kingdom. We should expect to face the persecution of the man of sin, son of doom, Satan’s right hand man, the anti-Christ who will oppose and exalt himself against God. But we will see the Day of the Lord approaching because He gave us six specific signs that will immediately precede His return:
1) Deception, False Christs, False Peace - Matthew 24:5; Mark 13:5,6; Luke 21:8; Revelation 6:2 (1st Seal)
2) War and rumors of war - Matthew 24:6,7; Mark 13:7,8; Luke 21:9,10; Revelation 6:3,4 (2nd Seal)
3) Famine - Matthew 24:7; Mark 13:8; Luke 21:11; Revelation 6:5,6 (3rd Seal)
4) Disease, troubles and natural disasters - Matthew 24:7; Mark 13:8; Luke 21:11; Revelation 6:7,8 (4th Seal)
5) “Tribulation”, persecution and martyrdom of the saints - Matthew 24:9; Mark 13:9; Luke 21:12; Revelation 6:9-11 (5th Seal)
6) Signs in the heavens, specifically the darkening of the sun and moon (immediately AFTER the Great Tribulation) - Matthew 24:29; Mark 13:24,25; Luke 21:25,26; Revelation 6:12-14 (6th Seal)
And I will add the seventh sign which is the rapture itself:
7) Return of the Lord / beginning of Day of the Lord - Matthew 24:30,31; Mark 13:26,27; Luke 21:27,28; Revelation 6:17 (subsequent to the 6th seal, prior to 7th seal)
After this comes the End otherwise known as the Day of the Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:23-24
But each one [is resurrected] in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
If the Rapture does not happen until midway in Daniel's seventieth week, the Church will be in opposition to the Jewish evangelists, since it has been the job of the Church during this pause in the weeks of Daniel to evangelize humankind. Jesus assured His disciples on the Upper Room occasion that He was going to prepare a place for them in His Father's House and would come to get them so that they could be THERE with Him, not here, THERE >
mark
bttt
Like I said before, the pre-trib position has an internal logic and consistency but I challenge you to support your assertions from scripture. I don’t mean that as an insult. If you can support them I will change my view. I have looked for the support and cannot find it. I do not know the Bible or its meaning perfectly, so it could be there and I have missed it, but I cannot accept it otherwise.
“There are no signs to create an anticipation of the day or hour of the coming of the bridegroom for the bridal party, to go back tot he Father’s House.”
The Olivet discourse which contains the seven signs I posted earlier is part of a larger narrative that includes Matthew 25 in which we are told of how Christ’s return will be like a groom arriving to pick up the bride. Also, this verse is significant:
Matthew 24:36
But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only
Two Hebrew idioms are referenced. Not knowing the day nor hour refers to the feast of trumpets. It is the one feast out of the seven prescribed feasts which begins on a new moon and required two witnesses to testify to seeing the new moon. Other feasts were planned for by the calendar, but this feast required flexibility because no one knew for sure the exact hour and day it would begin. But they did know approximately. The other idiom referenced is that a Jewish groom did not know exactly when the wedding would begin because his father had to inspect the home he prepared and decide it was ready. So the groom would reply that he did not know when the wedding would begin, only his father knew.
“the Church will be in opposition to the Jewish evangelists, since it has been the job of the Church during this pause in the weeks of Daniel to evangelize humankind”
The Jewish evangelists before the rapture are part of the church, so there is no opposition. Israel will repent when she sees Christ at the rapture.
Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Compare with this:
Revelation 1:7
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
The 144,000 Israelites are sealed after the Great Tribulation ends and the Day of the Lord begins. This is in Revelation 7. Christ returns, the Church is raptured out, Israel repents (feast of trumpets is followed immediately by feast of atonement which is a time of repentance). We see an uncountable multitude from all nations coming out of the Great Tribulation. How do they come out? There is no indication they die. But suddenly they are in God’s presence.
“[Jesus] was going to prepare a place for them [the disciples] in His Father’s House and would come to get them so that they could be THERE with Him, not here, THERE”
This will happen beginning with the events of Revelation 7.
It is after the seven signs but before the end / day of wrath.
Try to support each of your points with specific Bible passages. I think you will find that how you interpret them will begin to contradict itself.
For example, where does the Bible support a secret rapture?
Or does second Thessalonians 1 refer to the rapture of the church or Christ’s coming at a later time? If later, then how is it that this is when the believers will enter into rest? If it is the rapture, how is it that He will come with angels executing fiery judgment?
If you compare the Olivet discourse to Revelation 6-8, you will see that there will be signs in the sky, Christ will return and take His elect who survive the Great Tribulation, then the angels will begin to pour out judgments of fire on the earth just as God did to Sodom after Lot’s family was taken out by the angels.
My timeline is taken straight from the pages of scripture. Take a look at the Olivet discourse and the seven signs. Now try to reconcile this with Revelation. There is one and only one possible alignment of these passages. The signs in the heavens (sixth seal) happen immediately after the Great Tribulation (fifth seal). There is given in these four passages a sequence of events unique in human history. They must refer to the same events. When does Christ return? Immediately after the heavenly signs. Where in the narrative of Revelation does this match and correspond? The end of Revelation 6. Then we see tribes of Israel sealed, sudden appearance of uncountable believers before God, and then angels pour out fiery judgments.
Sure has!!!
Sure has!!!
You are contradicting your own post: "We see an uncountable multitude from all nations coming out of the Great Tribulation."
Thankfully, our disagreement is of zero impact upon our Salvation in Him and our Deliverance, so when we are 'departed' into the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, we will be grinning like Cheshire cats over the settled issue. See you in the clouds ... sooner than folks would even imagine.
One last point: Just as the crucifixion of Our Lord was hidden from Satan by not being shown in the Old Testament, so the Rapture is hidden FROM SATAN by not being shown openly in the New Testament. But if we believe what Jesus said in the Upper Room Discourse, regarding preparing a place THERE to be with Him, then just as so many Jews of the early body of believers in Jerusalem escaped the wrath of Titus and the Roman killing machine which slaughtered more than a million taking Jerusalem, escaped because they believed the Lord's teaching in the Luke 21 Temple Discourse, many will not be deceived by the great lie because the Rapture will clarify the two comings of Jesus, in the Air then later, at the end of the Great Tribulation as He sets foot again upon the Earth. The key is His assurance that He is preparing a place THERE, not here, to receive us unto Himself, BEFORE the hour of testing (see Rev 3, the declaration to the Philadelphia Church), followed by the condemnation to the Laodicean Church).
These exchanges are interesting, but I doubt we will settle the issues until the events arrive. Have a really good day and see you in the clouds, brother/sister.
“You are contradicting your own post: ‘We see an uncountable multitude from all nations coming out of the Great Tribulation.’”
Some of these things are both hard to understand and hard to explain. I believe the fifth seal IS the Great Tribulation. That is, the Great Tribulation is primarily about persecution of believers. That persecution includes martyrdom. Two distinct characteristics of this particular tribulation other than its severity will be it beginning with the abomination of desolation and the apostasy of a large number of professing believers.
When you compare all of the passages together, a more clear timeline emerges. The Great Tribulation begins with the abomination of desolation and ends with (or ends immediately prior to) the signs in the sky of the sixth seal. Christ will return right after these signs in the sky. His return is another sign in the sky as well. At this point the Day of the Lord begins.
Revelation 7 describes those who have “come out of the Great Tribulation” and stand before God. That is, these are those who survived the Great Tribulation (5th seal). They also lived through the events of the sixth seal.
Remember that Revelation 6-8 describe some events which are concurrent but happen in different places. They take place on the earth and in the first, second, and third heavens.
So it is not contradictory to say that aspects of the Great Tribulation and Day of the Lord are described in all three chapters as well.
“The reason God allows the strong delusion is BECAUSE the Rapture is not a secret to those who are not taken.”
By secret I do not mean that people left behind do not notice the missing people but the idea that Christ will not be visible to them when He returns at the rapture. I do not think that idea has any support.
“the Rapture will clarify the two comings of Jesus, in the Air then later, at the end of the Great Tribulation as He sets foot again upon the Earth”
I agree that there are two aspects to the second coming. In one case He meets the elect in the air. In the other His feet touch on the Mount of Olives, and it splits in two. In the first, the elect are gathered. In the second, the wicked are gathered and removed from the kingdom. The difference between our belief on the matter is that I anticipate the first aspect to come after the Great Tribulation but before the Day of the Lord. And the second aspect will happen at the end of the Day of the Lord. The significant difference being that for me the Great Tribulation is not the entire second half of Daniel’s seventieth week.
“The key is His assurance that He is preparing a place THERE, not here, to receive us unto Himself, BEFORE the hour of testing”
The main point is that we will be with Him whether in Heaven or on earth. The place He is preparing will be coming down from Heaven to the earth when He establishes His kingdom.
What He promised those in Philadelphia was to “keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world”. The Greek word which means “to keep” here is distinct from being saved from something in such a way as to be removed from it. So it is not a promise to be taken out. You can compare the Greek words in this passage with 1 Thessalonians when Paul wrote that Jesus “saves us from the wrath” to come, and also where Christ prayed for us and asked “not that You would take them out of the world, but that You would keep them from the evil one”. The word for “keep” there is the same as the message to Philadelphia. We will be saved from wrath by being taken completely away from it. We will be kept through the tribulation but not necessarily taken out of the world to escape it.
“Thankfully, our disagreement is of zero impact upon our Salvation in Him and our Deliverance, so when we are ‘departed’ into the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, we will be grinning like Cheshire cats over the settled issue. See you in the clouds”
Agreed. See you here or there or in the air. ;-)
What folks like you describe is Jesus beating up His Bride then telling her, 'okay, babe, let's get married now.'
Sorry, you will not convince me that God intends the Church to suffer the hour of testing or the testing (rev 3 to the Philadelphia Church is my text for this).
Your posts appear to indicate that you do not use the dispensation tool for discerning scriptures. I do and it yields clarity, like seeing different 'saints', the pre-Church Age saints, the Church Age Saints, and the Saints in the Tribulation, three different groups of Saints based upon differing dispensations of God's Grace. The Bride of Christ comes from the Church Age. The Tribulation is about Israel, as shown in Daniel 9. The seventieth week of Daniel's prophecy is the last of the times God has appointed for dealing with sin in Israel. During the Tribulation those being persecuted will become believers because of the Rapture and the persecution on those who see the Rapture as their indication that they were not counted among faithing Christians. But it is no longer The Church tasked with declaring the Gospel to the human race, it is Jews, as shown by the sealing of 144,000 at the beginning of the Tribulation.
During the pre-Christian Age, it was through the Jews that God declared to the human race that there is but One God, the God Who proclaims Himself. In the Church Age there is not a differentiation between Jews and Gentiles, for all are the same under the Grace of God in Christ. It is the rejection of this Grace in Christ Jesus which brings the Tribulation period. It is during the Tribulation when Jews who are sealed by Holy Spirit do the proclaiming of Messiah, and these Jews know precisely when He is to return to set foot on the Earth at the end of Jacob's Trouble.
During the Tribulation there will be persecution by the non-believers and the scoffers who have believed the Great Delusion fed to explain the Rapture with a lie. It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of an agry God, but that is exactly the state of humanity when the Rapture removes the believers, the Holy Spirit seals 144,000 Jews for evangelizing, and the antichrist is freed to broadcast lawlessness without restraint.
It is the continued rejection by too many, of the Grace of God during the tribulation building to the mid-point which results in the Wrath of God poured out upon the human race and the planet, because people preferred the lies and lawlessness to the Grace of God in Christ. It is to a world purged by God's wrath into which The King of Kings descends, to bring an end to the lawlessness and destroy finally the enemies of Israel.
Where the Bible admonishes believers to remain steadfast against the persecutions by antichrist forces, the message is not to the Church but to those who come to believe in the Truth of the Gospel during the Tribulation. I see hundreds of millions of Catholics suddenly realizing they have been following a false religion and were left behind. They will be the most quickly converted to the Grace of God in Christ and stop 'eating' the body, blood, soul and Divinity of Jesus in demonically inspired mass. They will be persecuted without mercy. Beheadings will be common (Islam in Chrislam anyone? Buehler? Anyone?), yet the converted will submit to this because they are believing they will immediately be with The Lord, and they will! The Revelation shows a number too great to count of souls showing up to witness the wedding IN HEAVEN. That number must be bigger than 200,000,000 because that 200 million is counted in an army arrayed against Israel!
Try applying a dispensational tool to reading the scriptures. It really does help to open up the meanings to a believer.
"Don't let your heart be troubled. Believe in God. Believe also in me. In my Father's house are many homes. If it weren't so, I would have told you. I am going to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will receive you to myself; that where I am, you may be there also. 4 Where I go, you know, and you know the way." [ John 14:1-4 ]
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