Our Lady of Fatima – Her Prophecies and Warnings Remain as Essential as Ever!

Archdiocese of Washington ^ | 10-12-15 | Msgr. Charles Pope

[af_vet_1981]

But the question remains and I do not yet see an answer that is plain and clear

I think you just answered it yourself. You allowed that the Jews worship and adore the same God as you profess to worship and adore, albeit not with the full understanding of the truth. I believe you. The common factor is each of these three religious traditions professes to worship and adore the God of Abraham. All three also believe Isaac and Jacob were blessed and chosen of God. There is only one God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The Messiah went to the Samaritans who also professed to worship the same God of Abraham as the Jews. The Samaritans were in error, yet they had a common reference point to the same God.

[rwa265]

To follow up on your response, it is my understanding that both Arab Jews and Arab Christians use the term “Allah.”

Here’s my take on it.

If a Jew, a Christian, and a Moslem were all asked if they worshipped the God that is described in the Torah:

The Jew would say, “Yes.”
The Christian would say, “Yes, as revealed by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”
The Moslem would say, “Yes, as revealed by the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.”

God is the same, but we believe in Him in greatly different ways.

[ealgeone]

To be clear for anyone reading.

Jehovah is not Allah. No Christian should ever equate the two as the same.

There is only one I AM as revealed in His word.

[kinsman redeemer]

That's interesting but I think you are wrong.

I thought we were talking about the Muslim God of today. Did Mohammed receive inspiration (when he wrote the Quran) from the same God that the Holy Roman Catholic Church worships? No. Although Ishmael was the progenitor of the Arab people, Muhammad did not (after 610 AD at least) worship the same God as the Jews.

Today's Muslim is worshipping a different god from the one that Hagar trusted and believed. Their perspective, their understanding, their concept of God has changed. Allah is a significantly different from the God that the Jews and I worship in truth. The Jews knowledge of God is incomplete. The Muslim God is a complete distortion of the God of Abraham.

Their distortion is so great that it is not the same God I serve

Now, I understand your view. I understand your perspective. I don't agree with you.

We've had an interesting discussion and I sincerely thank you.

In a related note, I want to present a prophesy about Ishmael that has been fulfilled.
He shall be a wild donkey of a man, his hand against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he shall dwell over against all his kinsmen.

[MHGinTN]

Well and truly stated, sir.

[kinsman redeemer]

After laying out in my previous post to you what was in my mind, I found this confirmation (fwiw), which describes my belief on the question at hand ("Are they the same God?):

The Origin of Islam: The "Previous Scriptures"
The origin of Islam is controversial. The "previous scriptures" mentioned above are the Hebrew Torah, the Psalms of David, and the Gospels of Jesus Christ (Sura 4:163; 5:44-48). The Qur'an accepts these books as divinely inspired and even encourages us to test its claims by these "previous scriptures." "If you have any doubt regarding what is revealed to you from your Lord, then ask those who read the previous scripture" (Sura 10:94). But this is where we run into a problem. The problem is that the Qur'an thoroughly contradicts the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospels. For example, the Qur'an explicitly denies Jesus Christ's crucifixion (Sura 4:157-158) while all four Gospel accounts clearly portray Jesus Christ as crucified and resurrected.

SOURCE

There's more there to see, but if I copy too much you may not read it.

On a personal note: I know you and I have great differences. You have been very gracious in this dialog. Thank you.

[MHGinTN]

Do Muslims look for the arrival of the Maadi to come from a well and slaughter those who do not bow down to allah? Do Jews look for the arrival of this same Maadi? You ask some of the most inane and off course questions! Jews who do not yet (YET) believe in Jesus as Messaih are waiting for the Messaih. Islam is not waiting for Messiah, they are waiting for the maadi from Hell, to slaughter all non-moose slimes. You ought to know that at your age ...

[af_vet_1981]

thought we were talking about the Muslim God of today.

Do you see what you wrote ?

I think the confusion stems from an understandable historical bias toward, and hatred for, Moslems, which is why I substituted Jews and Samaritans in the equation. Some/Most, but obviously not all of your Protestant colleagues will admit that they profess to worship the same God as the Jews (or Catholics) profess to worship and adore. Some will admit the Samaritans. Most would exclude the Moslems. There is only one God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and there are four religious traditions professing to worship and adore "The God" of Abraham (five if you count Reformed Christianity). Do all five worship and adore the God of Abraham in spirit and in truth without error ? No. Do all err equally ? No. Is one essentially correct ? Yes.

Regarding the prophecy I do not know what version that is and it does not quote the entire promise. One would miss the fact God named him with "El" on the name.

And the angel of the Lord found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai. And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands. And the angel of the Lord said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the Lord hath heard thy affliction. And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren. And she called the name of the Lord that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me? Wherefore the well was called Beerlahairoi; behold, it is between Kadesh and Bered. And Hagar bare Abram a son: and Abram called his son's name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael. And Abram was fourscore and six years old, when Hagar bare Ishmael to Abram.

Genesis, Catholic chapter sixteen, Protestant verses seven to sixteen,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

[af_vet_1981]

Are you unable to answer the simple question of “Do you think you worship the same God as is worshipped and adored by the Jews ?”

[kinsman redeemer]

Sadly, we’re back to tit for tat.

I don’t hate Muslims. Neither does God.

If your remark has to do with the capital “G” - it was a mistake. Should have been “ Muslim god of today”

There’s no confusion on my part.

Thanks again. We’re done.

[HossB86]

... they do not worship the same God ...

Oooh. Nice editing. Let's have that again, but IN CONTEXT (seemingly a problem in Roman Catholicism)....

"They do not worship God in his totality; they do not believe in God the Son. So, in that case, they do not worship the same God in that they do not believe in the Trinity. But they worship the one true living God, be it imperfectly."

Now... do Roman Catholics worship the same "God" as Muslims, as is stated in CCC 841, knowing that Muslims do not worship the God of Judeo-Christianity?

Can you answer that?

Hoss

[af_vet_1981]

To follow up on your response, it is my understanding that both Arab Jews and Arab Christians.

Yes, Allah has the definite article (Al) and means "The God." It is the word for God in Arabic, similar to how El/Elohim are the words for God in Hebrew. These are words are combined with other words to form compound descriptive names like El Shaddai, El Elyon, etc. The personal name that God gave Moses is unique, the so/called Tetragrammaton. I find it strange that the pronunciation was forgotten and it is shrouded in mystery until the Messiah comes (again).

[af_vet_1981]

You are of a Protestant tradition that rejects the Jews. Catholics accept the Jews as elder brethren.

Now... do Roman Catholics worship the same "God" as Muslims, as is stated in CCC 841, knowing that Muslims do not worship the God of Judeo-Christianity?

Can you answer that?

Catholics worship and adore the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who is "The God" that both the Jews and Moslems (as well as others like the Samaritans) also profess to worship and adore. There is only One God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. There is only one begotten Son of God. There is only one Messiah. His name in English is Jesus and He is coming to judge the living and the dead. Of his kingdom there will be no end. There is only one holy catholic apostolic church. If you imagine otherwise you are mistaken.

[ealgeone]

You are of a Protestant tradition that rejects the Jews. Catholics accept the Jews as elder brethren.

Define reject.

Define "accept as elder brethren".

Do catholics also recognize muslims as "elder" brethren?

If anyone professes faith in Christ, they are received by other Christians. Be they Jew or Gentile.

You know, roman catholics could clear up a lot of confusion if you dropped CCC 841.

To this day, I still haven't see a satisfactory answer as to why that was included in the CCC.

There is only one holy catholic apostolic church. If you imagine otherwise you are mistaken.

And it is not found in the RCC as we see today due to the utter reliance on Mary for salvation and the advancement of her as mediatrix, advocate, etc.

[af_vet_1981]

Define reject

Do you think you worship the same God as is worshipped and adored by the Jews ?”

[WVKayaker]

You are of a Protestant tradition that rejects the Jews. Catholics accept the Jews as elder brethren.

Do you think you worship the same God as is worshipped and adored by the Jews ?”

What a puerile attempt at argument!

First, the idea that Protestants reject Jews goes against Scripture. But, of course, we expect ignorance of Scripture from Roman Catholic cultists. I have not found many that spend much time "studying to show themselves approved:. They have too many obligations to their traditions. Praying repetitious words, and playing with beads, while bowing to idols is their strong suit!

Anyone that believes that those apparitions are of God probably believes in the Easter Bunny, as well! God will not be mocked, no matter how old an organization claims to be!!!

Ephesians 1: 3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship[c] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

[af_vet_1981]

Does that mean you think you worship the same God as is worshipped and adored by the Jews ?”

[ealgeone]

Do you think you worship the same God as is worshipped and adored by the Jews ?”

You mean as in below? The answer is yes as God in the OT is the same in the NT. He doesn't change.

In John 8:58 Jesus told the Jews, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

•El Shaddai (Lord God Almighty)

•El Elyon (The Most High God)

•Adonai (Lord, Master)

•Yahweh (Lord, Jehovah)

•Jehovah Nissi (The Lord My Banner)

•Jehovah-Raah (The Lord My Shepherd)

•Jehovah Rapha (The Lord That Heals)

•Jehovah Shammah (The Lord Is There)

•Jehovah Tsidkenu (The Lord Our Righteousness)

•Jehovah Mekoddishkem (The Lord Who Sanctifies You)

•El Olam (The Everlasting God)

•Elohim (God)

•Qanna (Jealous)

•Jehovah Jireh (The Lord Will Provide)

•Jehovah Shalom (The Lord Is Peace)

•Jehovah Sabaoth (The Lord of Hosts)

https://www.blueletterbible.org/study/misc/name_god.cfm

The observant reader will note, Allah is none of the above.

So the question still remains....do catholics and muslims adore the same God??

[WVKayaker]

Does that mean you think you worship the same God as is worshipped and adored by the Jews ?”

What kind of ignorant question is that? Scripture is clear. Try studying it! Your futile attempts at argument fall on deaf ears, when not backed by Scripture to support all your drek!

Romans 2: 28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

[kinsman redeemer]

Hoss, he’s stuck. If he says “yes” (and conforms to the teaching of the Holy Roman Catholic Church), then he’ll have to admit that he has no problem with the 5 pillars:

1. A Muslim must recite the basic creed, “There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is His prophet.”
2. He must recite prayers praising Allah five times a day while facing Mecca where, it is believed, Allah revealed the Koran to Muhammad.
3. He must give money to the poor.
4. He must fast for one month every year.
5. He must make a pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in his lifetime.

IF he has no problem agreeing to these things - and doing them himself, THEN he is following the teaching of the Holy Roman Catholic Church.

If he has a problem with the 5 pillars, then he is worshipping a god that is different from the Muslim god.

He keeps asking US about the God of the Jews. He keeps avoiding the basic question.

I entertained his charade, but his cooperation was feigned.