Our Lady of Fatima – Her Prophecies and Warnings Remain as Essential as Ever!

Archdiocese of Washington ^ | 10-12-15 | Msgr. Charles Pope

[painter]

I'd hazard a guess that what makes God sick is that someone would come along and posit a way of salvation that does not include the death of Jesus after seeing the great price He paid in coming to this earth, living a life from conception to a horrible, brutal death and deceiving people into thinking that it was all unnecessary because simply praying the rosary and appealing to Mary is good enough

It is obvious you don't have ANY idea what being a Catholic is all about! Next spring during Holy week I invite you to attend the Good Friday services at a local Catholic Church.

[af_vet_1981]

It's absolutely clear and simply written in 841. You're absolutely right: I'm not walking away from anything -- 841 says exactly what it says. Catholics and Muslims "adore the one Merciful God" -- "together with us" is hard to take out of context when it's written in plain language.

Like you, I'd love to hear the context.

The context is the relationship of the one holy catholic apostolic church to those who are not (yet) Christian. It declares how "we" are related to each other. Separated brethren. who are still regarded as Christian, are covered separately.
1. The Jewish people are mentioned first, and more extensively.
2. They also profess to worship and adore "The God" of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
3. Those who acknowledge "the Creator" come next, foremost among whom are the Moslems, who also, with us (the one holy catholic apostolic church and the Jewish people) profess to worship and adore "The God" of Abraham, Isaac. and Jacob.

The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

[MHGinTN]

Catholics are ripe for satan’s chrislam, as evidenced by their inability to discern the author of Islam. Even as the murderous nature of the father of Islam plays out, catholics continue to remain willfully clueless ... congratulations, your blindness is perfected, catholics. {/sarcasm}

[kinsman redeemer]

Thanks for your kind response.

[Legatus]

Catholics are ripe for satan’s chrislam, as evidenced by their inability to discern the author of Islam.

This disturbs me because it rings true. The CCC DOES allow that islam and the Church worship the same God... I doubt the mohammedans would agree. I think the argument that since islam is monotheistic therefore we must be worshiping the same God is ridiculous, completely worthy of ridicule.

OTOH, Belloc makes a very good case that islam did start as a heresy outside of the Church, but I think the final nature of their god is so radically NOT Divine that confusing the two deities is unacceptable.

[kinsman redeemer]

It was kind of you to respond to the challenge of explaining "context" - especially when another wouldn't.

So, are you saying that the context depends on the meaning of the word "we"?

How is it that the Holy Roman Catholic Church view Muslims as "separated brethren?" Is that because of Abraham and his son Ishmael- who was NOT the son of promise?

That's fascinating.

Again, it's good that YOU are willing to make your explanation. It's all very interesting.

[af_vet_1981]

So, are you saying that the context depends on the meaning of the word "we"?

How is it that the Holy Roman Catholic Church view Muslims as "separated brethren?" Is that because of Abraham and his son Ishmael- who was NOT the son of promise?

No, I did not write that. I explained the portion of the Catechism that some find confusing in context.
1. The passages are dealing with the relationship of the holy catholic apostolic church with nonChristians. Separated brethren, as I wrote, are considered Christian (assuming they are in Protestant faith communities that have not apostasized into a nonChristian religion/cult) and are covered in a different passage other than those I linked to. For example, you might be considered among the separated brethren and regarded as a Christian by Catholics.
2. The first people discussed who are not (yet) Christian are the Jewish people.
3. The next group considered who are not (yet) Christian are those who believe in the Creator, chief among whom are Moslems.
4. "We" includes the holy catholic apostolic church, the Jews, and those who profess faith in the God of Abraham (as do the Moslems), as having in common that all three profess to worship and adore the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That itself is the context of the relationship being discussed.

[HossB86]

this still does not address the fact that Muslims and Christians are NOT separated brethren; Muslims do NOT worship the one true living God... Father, Son, and Holy Spirit... and yet the Roman Catholic Church says they do.... Or that the RCC worships the same "god' as Muslims....

Since Mohammedans do not worship or adore the one true God, how can the Roman Catholic Church claim any "kinship" with those that basically worship Satan?

Or is there something more?

Hoss

[kinsman redeemer]

Again, I thank you for your response. I know we have our differences and it is good to have a rational exchange.

Maybe I'm the one who is confused here. I thought that Hoss gave this quote from the catechism:

"841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

Then I saw that another poster said that proper interpretation of catechism (using context that would not be provided) does not lead us to think that Muslims worship the same God of the Holy Roman Catholic Church.

In your most recent post, you even say,
4. "We" includes the holy catholic apostolic church, the Jews, and those who profess faith in the God of Abraham (as do the Muslims), as having in common that all three profess to worship and adore the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. (emphasis mine)

I understand that Hagar thought she was serving the same God as Abraham but you #4 uses the present tense to claim equivalence.

I admit: it is hard for me to follow what is being said by you and the other poster, but plainly asked:
Does the Holy Roman Catholic Church believe that the God it worships is the same as the God who is worshiped by Muslims?

Please be patient with me. I am not playing "gotcha." That poster was wrong.

[HossB86]

In your most recent post, you even say, 4. "We" includes the holy catholic apostolic church, the Jews, and those who profess faith in the God of Abraham (as do the Muslims), as having in common that all three profess to worship and adore the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. (emphasis mine)

That statement regarding the Jews raises another horrible accusation of equivalency -- that the Jews worship the same God as the Muslims.

As we know, Muslims do not worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, no matter how much they profess to....they are servants of Satan.

To which I continue to pose the question (which, like yours is not a 'gotcha'), do Catholics worship the same "God" as Muslims? Their CCC states it very plainly. And it continues to disturb me deeply.

Hoss

[MHGinTN]

Hoss, the more disturbing aspect is that faithful catholics on this thread actually believe Islam worships the same God as Judaism and Christianity. It is almost like the beheadings in Islam are a glitch to an otherwise acceptable religion to catholics. This maybe further proof that catholiciism is ‘another religion’, not Christianity.

[HossB86]

This maybe further proof that catholiciism is ‘another religion’, not Christianity.

Sad, but true. Thankfully, according to God's plan, there are Christians in Roman Catholicism, and thankfully, those that hear the Gospel and respond to it recognize the difference between religion and salvation and "cross the Tiber" in the proper direction -- exiting the RCC!

Well said all around, sir. Well said.

Hoss

[Iscool]

The next group considered who are not (yet) Christian are those who believe in the Creator, chief among whom are Moslems.

Jesus was the actual physical Creator so no the muzlims do not believe in the God of Creation...

[af_vet_1981]

Maybe I'm the one who is confused here. I thought that Hoss gave this quote from the catechism:

I included 841 in the link in post 202, immediately after 839 and 840 to show the context. Hagar did not just think she was serving the same God as Abraham. Hagar belonged to Abraham's house and the angel of the LORD appeared to her and spoke to her and she even gave God a name. She was obviously serving the same God as Abraham.

As for your other question, the Catechism is the authoritative voice and answers it.

Do you think you worship the same God as is worshipped and adored by the Jews ?

[af_vet_1981]

That statement regarding the Jews raises another horrible accusation of equivalency -- that the Jews worship the same God as the Muslims.

As we know, Muslims do not worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, no matter how much they profess to....they

Do you think you worship the same God as is worshipped and adored by the Jews ?

[af_vet_1981]

Jesus was the actual physical Creator so no the muzlims do not believe in the God of Creation...

Do you think you worship the same God as is worshipped and adored by the Jews ?

[metmom]

Your guess has nothing to do with my statement.

For one thing, it’s wrong.

For another, it does not negate my statement.

The fact that the apparition posits another way of salvation besides Jesus is the issue.

Do you believe that the apparition is from God then? Do you agree that there’s another way to God other than Jesus. IOW, through Mary and praying the rosary?

[HossB86]

Do you think you worship the same God as is worshipped and adored by the Jews ?

Do the Jews believe that Christ is the Son of God? Do the Jews believe that Jesus came and died a substitutionary death to save us from our sins?

They do not worship God in his totality; they do not believe in God the Son. So, in that case, they do not worship the same God in that they do not believe in the Trinity. But they worship the one true living God, be it imperfectly.

Do Jews worship Jehovah, or Allah?

Mohammedans worship Satan. They do NOT worship Jehovah. They do not worship the Judeo-Christian God.... so the twisting and turning to try to make it seem that the CCC is in some way legitimate doesn't work. Muslims are not brethren. They are lost, just as we all were before God saved us. But, they worship Allah -- not Jehovah/Yahweh. They don't. No amount of spinning will make it so.

So... once again: do Catholics worship the same "God" as Muslims do as stated clearly and without equivocation in CCC 841? Simple question.

Hoss

[kinsman redeemer]

Thanks for your reply.

The reason I said she "thought" was simply to confirm what was on her mind. I did not mean to imply that she wasn't worshipping Abraham's God. She was. and God blessed her. I can see why you thought that I meant something else, though.

Naturally, you know that I don't buy the statement that catechism is authoritative. But I won't go there because we are having a nice dialog.

I definitely DO worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, Rahab, Naomi, Nahum, Paul, Mary, and Onesimus -just to name a few.

I worship the same God that Jews worship in truth. They are God's chosen people and I believe that they can be saved if they accept Christ as their Lord and Savior. Without Christ, their knowledge of God is incomplete but they worship the same God as I, when they worship Him in truth.

The simple question isn't whether KR worships the same God as the Jews (He does.), it is:

Does the Holy Roman Catholic Church believe that the God it worships is the same as the God who is worshiped by Muslims?

Please continue to be patient with me.

#839 is about the Jews. It is not relevant to the question I am humbly asking.

#840 is about people of the Covenant. Hagar is not of the same covenant. As Sarah said, (Gen 21) “Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac.” And it is so. See also Gen 17:21 and Gal 4:24, regarding the two covenants.

#841 is an incomplete view of salvation. God's Word is clear about that. Adoring the one merciful God is not a ticket to eternal life. That, too is a subject that we have engaged in the past - and may we put that important question aside for the sake of this dialog?

I want to make one point clear: ANY person who trust God by trusting Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior will be saved. I became part of the Covenant by being "grafted in contrary to nature." (Rom 11) The same could be true for any person - including Muslims.

But the question remains and I do not yet see an answer that is plain and clear to me.

[af_vet_1981]

... they do not worship the same God ...

Ok, you voted that the Jews do not worship and adore the same God as you profess to worship and adore.

Jews do not pronounce the name of God as you do, being partial to the Hebrew and substituting Adonai for the Tetragrammaton whose historically correct pronunciation was forgotten. The Arabic word Allah is similar to the Hebrew El/Elohim construct, meaning literally "The God" so a congruent comparison on your part would be El/Elohim and Allah, which are words for God used in constructs (eg., God of Abraham, God Almighty, etc.).