Our Lady of Fatima – Her Prophecies and Warnings Remain as Essential as Ever!

Archdiocese of Washington ^ | 10-12-15 | Msgr. Charles Pope

[rwa265]

To state what someone believes is not the same as believing it.

You wrote: “Mo-ham-head claimed the angel Gabriel spoke to him...” Based on this claim, Islam traces its origin to the God of Abraham.

I do not believe that the angel Gabriel spoke to Muhammad. Neither do I believe that Islam originated with the God of Abraham.

It is what they believe; I don’t agree with it.

[MHGinTN]

Mormons claim to believe in the God of Abraham ... and believe he was once a man and became exalted to current godhood as they also can be promoted. Would you agree that they actually believe in the same God of Judaism/Christianity?

[af_vet_1981]

1. If I understand correctly you're basing your defense of CCC 841 on islamic belief in the God of Abraham. In other words; they say they worship the God of Abraham, we do worship the God of Abraham, therefore we're worshiping the same God.
2. Islam is a mixture of Christian heresy and paganism. I think that our non-Catholic brethren here are firmly convinced that there's too much paganism in the heresy for their god to be God. I agree with them.
3. I realize I'm going out on a limb in disagreeing with the CCC but our differences with islam go beyond whether mohammed was a prophet (we all agree he wasn't). Islam and Christendom disagree on the very nature of God Himself.
4. I think the argument that tries to include islam in the family of Abrahamic religion misses the point that the Hebrew religion is not a man-made religion, it is founded by God. Islam was not. That alone should have been the red flag that Cardinal Schönborn apparently missed when he was compiling and editing the CCC for pope St. JPII.

Islam is not mentioned. "The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330"
1. Some were/are confused by CCC 839-841 and I tried to help them get past the stumbling blocks. CCC 841 is not about Islam; it is about Moslems. Can you see the difference ? CCC 841 mentions the people, the profession to hold the faith of Abraham, but there is no endorsement from God on their religion, as you see for the Jews.
2. The stumbling block I see is thinking about Islam rather than the Moslems. The CCC does not mention Islam.
3. Which is probably why Islam is not mentioned but the Moslems are
4. That key distinction is right in the text, and this is where the Catechism differentiates, not only the Jewish faith from the other religion that is not named, but from all other religions so that Catholics see the Jews as intrinsically related to us, elder brethren as it were.
   "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325 The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

And to sum it all up :

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race: All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331 843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332 844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them: Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333 845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

[ealgeone]

Now compare what Catholics have called us in the past. Someone needs to get off their high horse to be sure.

[ealgeone]

Is not a Muslim a follower of Islam?

Face it dude, you cannot defend what the ccc has written on this.

As I said earlier you're attempt at parsing words is clintonian.

[Legatus]

CCC 841 mentions the people, the profession to hold the faith of Abraham, but there is no endorsement from God on their religion, as you see for the Jews.

That seems like a stretch. It's like when anti-Catholics slam the Church and cover by saying "Oh, I don't hate Catholics, I hate Catholicism".

[rwa265]

Thank you for your efforts in clarifying CCC 839-841. It has added to my understanding of what the writers of the Catechism intended.

Peace,
Rich

[MHGinTN]

LOL So this is how catholics sustain their magic thinking!

[Legatus]

Don’t look at me.

[af_vet_1981]

That seems like a stretch. It's like when anti-Catholics slam the Church and cover by saying "Oh, I don't hate Catholics, I hate Catholicism".

1. It would have been easy to add the word "religion" to CCC 841 if Islam were the subject.
2. Do you deny that the Samaritans profess/professed to worship and adore the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as Jews, Catholics, and separated brethren also profess to do ?
3. How many different Gods of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob do you posit ?
4. Do you mean the antiCatholics are lying to themselves, us, and God when they write that ?
5. Do you think the antiCatholics profess to worship and adore a different God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob than Catholics and Jews ?
6. One can see in this thread how the Samaritans were hated and yet I do not know if it was expressed as hating Samaritanism as a cloak.

[rwa265]

Did I not once thank you for adding to my understanding of the message of Paul? If I remember correctly, it was in reference to Romans 7 and 8.

[MHGinTN]

I couldn’t tell you, since I do not gunny-sack praise or scorn. I’m too old to be edified by either.

[af_vet_1981]

Is not a Muslim a follower of Islam?

Anyone born of a Muslim father, or who ever once says the shehada prayer, under threat or duress notwithstanding, including Protestants like you is considered a Moslem in the Moslem world. Their levels of assent and observance are imposed and vary.

Face it dude, you cannot defend what the ccc has written on this.

And yet I have. Do you hate Moslems more than Jews that you accept CCC839-840 and stumble over CCC 841 ? As I said earlier you're attempt at parsing words is clintonian.

Do you mean this as a synonym for lying ? Does your faith have a form of taqqiyah where it is acceptable to bear false witness when asked ?

[ealgeone]

You wrote: Islam is not mentioned. "The Church's relationship with the Muslims.

This is where you went clintonian.

Muslims are those who follow Islam. It doesn't matter if Islam is not mentioned as that is the religion being discussed is you're noting Muslims.

[af_vet_1981]

going out on a limb in disagreeing with the CCC but our differences with islam go beyond whether mohammed was a prophet (we all agree he wasn't). Islam and Christendom disagree on the very

CCC841 is not about Islam, read it again. It is about nonChristians, other than the Jews, who look to the one Creator, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacov. The Moslems, who comprise one fourth of the human beings on this planet, are chief (most numerous/prominent) among this classification. They, like Samaritans, call upon the Gid of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, accept the Bible as holy, honor all the Patriarchs and Matriarchs, do not insult blessed Mary, call Jesus a holy prophet, messenger, and "the Messiah." However, they are nonChristian.

[af_vet_1981]

You wrote: Islam is not mentioned. "The Church's relationship with the Muslims.
This is where you went clintonian.

1. Do you intend the expression went clintonian as a synonym for lying ?
2. Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus or would you deny him ? Thrice ?

[ealgeone]

Face it af....you tried a little slight of hand with your definitions and now you've been busted and you're trying to deflect.

I think you're attempts have been exposed enough.

As always, it's a learning experience with you.

Have a good day.

And yes, I do follow Christ....do you??

[Legatus]

I'm with ealgeone on this question. Muslims are islam, Catholics are Catholicism, Protestants are Protestantism. Take away the people and the subject becomes academic.

CCC843 says "The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions". There is no switching of gears as if we're going from talking about a people and now religions.

BTW, while we're at it, this heading is CCC839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways." The Jews HAVE received the Gospel, for the most part they've rejected it. This whole section needs a traditional rewrite. Precision doesn't seem to be high on the list of goals this time around.

[af_vet_1981]

They, like Samaritans, call upon the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, accept the Bible as holy, honor all the Patriarchs and Matriarchs, do not insult blessed Mary, call Jesus a holy prophet, messenger, and "the Messiah." However, they are nonChristian.

[rwa265]

I do not remember the details. What I do remember is that your post opened me to a new understanding of Paul’s message in Romans 8:1-2. If I did not thank you then, I do now.