Strategies for Returning to the [Catholic] Church

CE.com ^ | 01-11-18 | James Day

[Iscool]

What does a sword piercing Mary’s soul mean?

It 'means' she was killed by a sword!

Just like when Jesus said, "This is my body."

poor Mary... :(

[ravenwolf]

I am sorry maybe I just can not read but I have
not seen anything in regards to the size of the rock,. stone or what ever.

Jesus called Simon Cephas, I went to six different dictionarys,

Two of them said it was Hebrew for rock, four of
them said it was armaraic. probably misspelled, for rock.

Greek takes it to stone.

I don’t know if Jesus spoke Hebrew or just what but he did
use cephas which means rock, not little rock or big rock
but just rock.

[FourtySeven]

It’s not “circular reasoning” to point out the fact that without a final authority, all human attempts fail, as personal opinion dominates in anarchy.

That’s just a fact, it’s not “circular reasoning”.

[ravenwolf]

I think we all know that Jesus is the rock.
He is not just the rock he is every thing
to us.

But some would have us believe that he was
just joshing Peter by calling Peter a rock
and I believe that is very bad thinking.

Some are deliberately trying to make Peter
look like a screw up in order to deny what
the Catholic Church teaches.

I get the idea from reading scripture that
the church has filled in the voids with their
own wishes.

Jesus made it very plain that there was not
to be any one with authority over the others.

That does not rule out some one taking the
lead, when Jesus met peter he read him like
a book, he knew that Peter would take the
lead and we have all of the proof in acts
that he did.

I see no hint in the scriptures of Peter being
Pope but if there is such a thing as a man being
great then Peter was great.

I also see no hint that we should use Mary as an
intercessor, but if there is such a thing as a great
woman then Mary was also great.

[Iscool]

Both the confession and Peter himself are this "stone", but not that one can separate the confession from the man, as if they are two separate entities. Indeed one (the confession) comes from the other (the man). So to say that Jesus builds His Church on a confession is to say, at least by implication, that it is also built on that same man who issued the confession.

Where is this church of Peter's at??? Where's the instruction from Jesus on how to set up this church???

What about Paul's church

1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

Paul was a Masterbuilder and he built the foundation of the church...

Php 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

Jesus told Paul to tell the people to follow Paul, not Peter...

Php 4:9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

And where did Paul learn about what he taught??? From Peter??? Nope...

Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

So did the apostle Peter who the Catholic religion claims their Church was built on instruct the apostle Paul anything about that Church, or how to operate the Church??? Clearly not...

In fact, it was Paul who was given the task to receive and record the instructions given by Jesus on how to set up and operate the churches, on how to live holy lives and how to defeat the devil...And he got none of that information from any other apostle apostle...They got that information from Paul...

Peter was then sent by God to take the gospel to the dispersed Jews...He certainly wouldn't have set up shop in Rome for 25 years...That wasn't his job...That was not his instruction...

No doubt that the Jewish population was minuscule compared to the population of the rest of the world...And it was the rest of the world that Jesus commissioned Paul to take care of...

Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

The portion of the bible written directly to the churches in the church age was written by the apostle Paul under instruction from Jesus...Paul's instructions describe the 'bible' church...Peter was given no instruction on how the church was to be set up...Odd wouldn't you think, for a person on whom the church was built (according to Catholic teaching)...The Catholic religion is foreign to the church epistles of the bible...

The Catholic church built its religion over a long period of time while the 'bible' church, the church that Jesus built was established with its own rules in the 1st century...The head of the church is not Peter, nor Paul but Christ and his written words, preserved for eternity...

Do do you Catholics follow Peter, or Mary???

1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
1Co 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

Forget this Peter and Mary stuff...It's a carnal religion...

[imardmd1]

I’m afraid you’re barking up the wrong tree. There’s nobody such as you have last described that lives at this house. You need to take another tack, if you want to be heard. And answered.

[Iscool]

as I pointed out in my previous post, this shows yet again a need for a divinely led teaching authority, or else everyone's personal opinion is what rules instead of the truth.

We have a divinely led teaching authority and it is the word of God and the Holy Ghost...

The bible clearly says that all the disciples were given the ability of binding and loosing...

[Luircin]

I think it’s that priests are given the authority of God to forgive sins, but that the authority comes from God.

Same thing with Lutherans, except for the fact that there are no priests, since Jesus is our only High Priest who makes intercession for us.

Whatever the case, when the pastor declares forgiveness of sins, it’s as if God himself has said so, because Jesus gave that power to the Church through the Apostles. (Not Roman church, the capital-C Church of all believers.)

Of course, I could be wrong re: what Catholics believe.

[Iscool]

I don’t know if Jesus spoke Hebrew or just what but he did use cephas which means rock, not little rock or big rock but just rock.

Point out from the rest of the scriptures where Peter was used as the rock to have the church built on him...Surely there has to be more than just Matt. 16:18...

[boatbums]

I suppose a cynical person may say "so the Catholics pick and choose which ECF to listen to and when, just to fit their agenda". Such cynicism would ignore the point made above that, at least on this matter, the ECF's describe two faces of the same coin so to speak, not that they contradict each other. But also, it would be truly cynicism to say such a thing, to claim it's just "fitting an agenda" to "pick and choose" quotes, because the same could be said of the Protestant's use of ECF quotes.

What it does show is that Catholicism's claim of always having the "unanimous consent of the fathers" on certain doctrines really doesn't exist. Usually when Protestants/Evangelicals here cite ECFs it is to disprove an assertion that the church always taught or believed something - usually something that cannot be shown from Scripture.

[af_vet_1981]

Read the Book of Galatians. It is self evident that the Apostle Paul wrote it to the churches of Galatia because they were falling into the heresy of Gentiles being circumcised and keeping the Law of Moses to be saved.

Having begun in the Spirit, they were not to circumcise their flesh (foreskins), as required by God under the Abrahamic Covenant and confirmed by God in the Law of Moses, unless they were in fact Jews (like Timothy but not Titus). The fleshly observance of the Law of Moses would profit them nothing. Instead, they were to obey the Gospel and the commandments as taught by the Apostles.

[Mark17]

I just want to know, how you are going to bluff your way into Heaven?

[af_vet_1981]

I just want to know, how ...

Have an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Galatians, Catholic chapter five, Protestant verses nineteen to twenty six,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

[Elsie]

I must admit this is an inventive way of reading the passage in question. That's perhaps the most charitable assessment I can make of this argument.

[Elsie]

It’s not “circular reasoning” to point out the fact that without a final authority, all human attempts fail, as personal opinion dominates in anarchy.

We're the Final Authority because we SAY so.

[af_vet_1981]

Point out from the rest of the scriptures where Peter was used as the rock to have the church built on him...Surely there has to be more than just Matt. 16:18...

Yes, there is one of the Apostle Paul's epistles that points out the apostles and prophets are the foundation stones with the Messiah being the chief cornerstone.


Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Ephesians, Catholic chapter two, Protestant verses nineteen to twenty two,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

The cornerstone (or foundation stone or setting stone) is the first stone set in the construction of a masonry foundation, important since all other stones will be set in reference to this stone, thus determining the position of the entire structure.

[Elsie]

I think we all know that Jesus is the rock.

I think there is a LOT of verse in this thread indicating that.

Notice how NONE of them have been discussed!?

[Elsie]

John 18:33-38 esv

 

 

 

33 So Pilate entered his headquarters again and called Jesus and said to him, “Are you the King of the Jews?”

34 Jesus answered, “Do you say this of your own accord, or did others say it to you about me?”

35 Pilate answered, “Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have delivered you over to me. What have you done?”

36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”

37 Then Pilate said to him, “So you are a king?”

     Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth. jEveryone who is of the truth listens to my voice.”

38 Pilate said to him, “What is truth?”

 

my voice: not Mary's, not ECFs, not pope's, not Magisterium, not catechism lessons...

 

 

my voice... 

[Mark17]

Have an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

The Bible in Jeremiah 17:9 says the heart is deceitful and wicked, so I disagree with that part of your statement. You will have to define what you mean, by “having heard the word, keep it” because your thoughts on that phrase, may be different than mine. It still sounds like salvation by works, rather than salvation producing good works.
Did you run that by a priest first, or did you do a YOPIOS? I do that all the time, but then again, I can do that, since I am not a Catholic. I was a Catholic in the distant past, and was told I needed a priest, to interpret scripture. Now, I do YOPIOS all the time. It works for me.

[Elsie]

Instead, they were to obey the Gospel and the commandments as taught by the Apostles.

'they' being the GENTILES...

---

And here it is!!!

 

The Council's Letter to Gentile Believers

ACTS 15:22-29

 

 

 ²² Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers. ²³ With them they sent the following letter:

   The apostles and elders, your brothers,

   To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:

   Greetings.

 ²⁴ We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. ²⁵ So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— ²⁶ men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. ²⁷ Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. ²⁸ It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: ²⁹ You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

   Farewell.