Posted on 01/11/2018 6:54:52 PM PST by Salvation
And yet you wrote:
For instance he most likely told the writer of John ...
Yes, the holy spirit not men who thinks of them selves as appointed by the holy spirit.
Do you understand that the passage refers to the corruption of the covenant the Hebrews made with God in promising to follow the Law given at Mount Sinai, and the fruit of it, as Jesus told them, was corrupting faith (the fruit intended) as the channel by which Grace flows to believers? Jesus is the vine of Grace; the works based failure of Judaism then was rebuked and the Covenant replaced with a New Covenant. Do you see that conveyed in the passage you posted?
Let's get's down to the "brass tacks" (or is it "tax" I've never known), and reduce this to as many facts, and as little personal opinion as possible.
In John 1:42, Jesus Himself says that Simon will be called "Κηφᾶς" (which is "Cephas" when it's written in Greek). Κηφᾶς, no one can deny, means only "rock".
Later, in the same passage, the Holy Spirit inspired the author to interpret "Κηφᾶς" as "Πέτρος ".
The big whoop imardmd1 (and others on this thread I guess) are making here stems from the fact that "Πέτρος" can mean both "rock" AND "stone".
So, the reasoning goes (apparently), since "Πέτρος" can mean "stone", and in Matt 16, only "Πέτρος" is used (in reference to Simon), and since "we" (meaning Protestants/anti-Catholic Christians) know that Simon/Peter wasn't called "rock" in Matt 16 (because of the word games played there), then here, in John 1:42, the Holy Spirit must be saying that "Πέτρος " here must also mean "little stone" just as it does in Matt 16 (again according to the word games they play with "Πέτρος" vs "πέτρα" there).
I say "word games" because what's really going on in Matt 16:18 is that Jesus isn't playing a "word game" but rather a "play on words", playing off "πέτρα" by calling Simon "Πέτρος". Why did He do that there (in Matt 16:18)? Whole books have been written on that subject to be sure but probably the best answer is that since Simon was a man, He had to use "Πέτρος" rather than "πέτρα" because "πέτρα" is a feminine noun.
Regardless of all of the above, the entire confusion generated by focusing on Matt 16:18 alone, in isolation of the rest of Scripture ignores John 1:42 (and others) where Jesus Himself says that Simon will be called "Κηφᾶς", which means "rock" and only "rock", and even though the Holy Spirit goes on to clarify that "Κηφᾶς" means "Πέτρος" it's immaterial, because "Πέτρος" can also mean "rock" in addition to "stone". In other words, all that's happening in John 1:42 is that the Holy Spirit is clarifying that the Aramaic word used by Jesus is the same for both Greek words.
Otherwise, we have the Holy Spirit contradicting Jesus! Because again, the word used by Jesus (Κηφᾶς) can only mean "rock". So the Holy Spirit, when He inspired the author of John, must have meant that "Πέτρος" means "rock" as well, and not just a "stone" (or "little stone" or "pebble"as those mentioned above allege about Matt 16:18).
This is what ravenwolf has been saying all along, I believe. And I believe he/she is right.
John 1:42 provides the key to interpreting what "Πέτρος" truly means in Matt 16:18. Not some tortured, twisted word game the Protestants want, but simply that Jesus was respecting Simon's gender in Matt 16:18 by calling him "Πέτρος" there, but his true name is "Κηφᾶς", which is "rock".
It's inescapable, unless we wish to believe that the Holy Spirit contradicted Jesus in John 1:42.
Thanks for the explanation which is some what above
my head.
It is my simplicity which I have to depend on rather
than wisdom or education, one little simple scripture
can sometimes hold the key to understanding the intire
chapter.
I see you have the understanding to bring it all together.
Now you do...
Unknown.[1] Earliest attestation in 1863 US, specifically Texas.[1] A theory is that it comes from the brass tacks in the counter of a hardware store or draper’s shop used to measure cloth in precise units (rather than holding one end to the nose and stretching out the arm to approximately one yard). Another possibility is the 19th century American practice of using brass tacks to spell out the initials of the deceased on the top of their coffin.
Cool thanks.
Right, there are other verses than this that talk of God being the “Rock” of our Salvation, and the only one etc.
Of course it’s true that He is the source of all Salvation, and in this sense, He is this “Rock”. From Him all Salvation comes. That is what is meant here. Also, of course it means that there are none that are equal to, or “beside” Him.
There is no contradiction in believing that, and also believing that Simon was called “a rock” as well, a rock that Jesus built His Church upon. This notion is also in OT Scripture.
Isa 51:1-2, this describes Abraham as being the “rock from which you were hewn”.
Note that same word for “rock” in the Hebrew is the same word used in your reference (Isa 44:8).
That same word (H6697) is also used in Jer 21:13, where God speaks of “being against” the “rock” in the valley. Is God against Himself here? Of course not.
The point is it all depends on context, and how the word “rock” is used in which passage. In Jer 21:13 it’s used as just a natural rock, in Isa 44:8 it’s used to describe God and the source of salvation, in Isa 51:1-2 it’s used to describe Abraham as the source (earthly) of all Israelites, in a fleshly way.
This is all about the Hebrew word for “rock”. In the NT there’s no difference in this only in the language used (Greek). In the NT, in reference to Simon, the word for “rock” is used in reference to him, but of course it’s always understood that the only way he is “rock” is because of Jesus, because without Jesus Simon is nothing.
Just as Abraham is nothing without God. Just as the “rocks” of the valley are nothing compared to their Creator. All are subject to Him who is the “Rock of Salvation”, no other “rock” who is “beside” Him.
That’s just understood. That’s a given. And thus should be understood anytime anyone (any Catholic) refers to Simon Peter as “rock”. Simon is only “rock” relative to (subservient to) God, he is a “rock” from which God made him a “rock”, but God is the source of all “rock” as He is the source of everything. Simon is not a “rock” equal to God in other words, so Isa 44:8, and similar such verses that speak of God being a “rock”, isn’t violated here.
That is true, and I was not unaware of it as I laid the claim. One solid, unavoidable factor is that Jesus said He would build His church, and Paul proclaims it to the believers at Ephesus (many of whom are Gentiles)in his epistle written in 62 A.D.:
Eph 2:19-22 AV:
"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints,
and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself
being the chief corner stone;
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."
So,this is a spiritual House of God, built with what? Peter, doubtless having read Paul's letter, explains this doctrine to the Diaspora in his first general epistle to them three years later. His conclusions are unarguable:
1 Pet 2:1-8 AV:
"Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies,
and all evil speakings,
As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
To whom coming, as unto a living stone*, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones*, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood,
to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone*,
elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient,
the stone* which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
And a stone* of stumbling, and a rock** of offence, even to them which stumble at the word,
being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
Note: * = λίθος; ** = πέτρα
These letters will have gotten into the mainstream of circulated correspondence between church elders, and well known by John, who in writing his version of Jesus' life and teachings, made sure that Jesus' assignment of Simon as one of those living stones, a petros, and thus assuring Simon of it, was included in that story written much later than the other Gospels, about 90-94 A. D.
I think it is hard to imagine that, while influential in the first church of Jerusalem even with many concerts, that Peter or any of the other apostles imagined him(self) to be the central figure upon which it or any of the other autonomous church bodies were founded. Certainly neither Paul nor any of the Gentile churches he planted thought at all of any of the other Apostles, Peter included, were supernumaries.
Furthermore, I see no place in the NT were "Petros" was ever directly associated with the lexical equivalent of "rock." If there is one, find it and display it. The only human being to whom the meaning "petra" is attached is the Lord Jesus Christ, in either the OT (LXX) or the NT. So let's let go of the Peter positively papal promise and put it to bed as an unfulfilled hypothesis.
The above is a good and sufficient assertion that "Cephas" in context means "stone" as translated by Apostle John and interpreted by the KJV/AV panel of scholars, and nothing else.
af_vet_1981: The passage does not interpret Cephas as λίθον (a stone).
Neither does it prove that "Cephas" or "Petros" is not the lexical equivalent of "lithos," AFIK.
"but chosen of God, and precious, 1Pe 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones*, . . ."
-----
". . . even with many concerts converts, . ."
-------->p? ". . . thought that all of or any of the other Apostles . . ."
Please note that Simon Peter was one of those foundational Apostle Stones, not the only one, and most certainly not the chief one.
Amen.
"but chosen of God, and precious, 1Pe 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones*, . . ."
-----
". . . even with many concerts converts, . ."
-------->p? ". . . thought that all of or any of the other Apostles . . ."
Please note that Simon Peter was one of those foundational Apostle Stones, not the only one, and most certainly not the chief one.
Amen.
Now your delusion time takes control. Too bad.
It's too bad that the ECFs didn't 'see' what you see.
As regards the oft-quoted Mt. 16:18, note the following Early Church Fathers promise in the profession of faith of Vatican 1:
• Basil of Seleucia, Oratio 25:
'You are Christ, Son of the living God.'...Now Christ called this confession a rock, and he named the one who confessed it 'Peter,' perceiving the appellation which was suitable to the author of this confession. For this is the solemn rock of religion, this the basis of salvation, this the wall of faith and the foundation of truth: 'For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Christ Jesus.' To whom be glory and power forever. — Oratio XXV.4, M.P.G., Vol. 85, Col. 296-297.
• Bede, Matthaei Evangelium Expositio, 3:
You are Peter and on this rock from which you have taken your name, that is, on myself, I will build my Church, upon that perfection of faith which you confessed I will build my Church by whose society of confession should anyone deviate although in himself he seems to do great things he does not belong to the building of my Church...Metaphorically it is said to him on this rock, that is, the Saviour which you confessed, the Church is to be built, who granted participation to the faithful confessor of his name. — 80Homily 23, M.P.L., Vol. 94, Col. 260. Cited by Karlfried Froehlich, Formen, Footnote #204, p. 156 [unable to verify by me].
• Cassiodorus, Psalm 45.5:
'It will not be moved' is said about the Church to which alone that promise has been given: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I shall build my Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.' For the Church cannot be moved because it is known to have been founded on that most solid rock, namely, Christ the Lord. — Expositions in the Psalms, Volume 1; Volume 51, Psalm 45.5, p. 455
• Chrysostom (John) [who affirmed Peter was a rock, but here not the rock in Mt. 16:18]:
Therefore He added this, 'And I say unto thee, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church; that is, on the faith of his confession. — Chrysostom, Homilies on the Gospel of Saint Matthew, Homily LIIl; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.LII.html)
• Cyril of Alexandria:
When [Peter] wisely and blamelessly confessed his faith to Jesus saying, 'You are Christ, Son of the living God,' Jesus said to divine Peter: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church.' Now by the word 'rock', Jesus indicated, I think, the immoveable faith of the disciple.”. — Cyril Commentary on Isaiah 4.2.
• Origen, Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book XII):
“For a rock is every disciple of Christ of whom those drank who drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, 1 Corinthians 10:4 and upon every such rock is built every word of the church, and the polity in accordance with it; for in each of the perfect, who have the combination of words and deeds and thoughts which fill up the blessedness, is the church built by God.'
“For all bear the surname ‘rock’ who are the imitators of Christ, that is, of the spiritual rock which followed those who are being saved, that they may drink from it the spiritual draught. But these bear the surname of rock just as Christ does. But also as members of Christ deriving their surname from Him they are called Christians, and from the rock, Peters.” — Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book XII), sect. 10,11 ( http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/101612.htm)
• Hilary of Potier, On the Trinity (Book II):
Thus our one immovable foundation, our one blissful rock of faith, is the confession from Peter's mouth, Thou art the Son of the living God. On it we can base an answer to every objection with which perverted ingenuity or embittered treachery may assail the truth."-- (Hilary of Potier, On the Trinity (Book II), para 23; Philip Schaff, editor, The Nicene & Post Nicene Fathers Series 2, Vol 9.
Elsie, do you not know that these same ECFs also speak of Peter himself being the Rock? Here are some examples.
St. Basil the Great (371 A.D.):
“The house of God, which is the Church of the living God, the foundations of which are on the holy mountains, for it is built upon the Apostles and prophets. One also of these mountains was Peter, upon which Rock the Lord promised to build His Church.” (Basil, T. i. Comment. in Esai. c. ii.).
“The soul of blessed Peter was called a lofty Rock ...” (Basil, Sermon 1 De Fide I.13).
St. John Chrysostom (387 A.D.):
“...and when I name Peter, I name that unbroken Rock, that firm foundation, the Great Apostle, the First of the disciples ...” (Chrysostom, T. ii. Hom. iii. de Paednit).
“Peter, the leader of the choir, that Mouth of the rest of the Apostles, that Head of the brotherhood, that one set over the entire universe, that Foundation of the Church.” (Chrysostom, In illud. hoc Scitote).
“Peter, ... that Pillar of the Church, the Buttress of the Faith, the Foundation of the Confession.” (Chrysostom, T. iii. Hom. de Dec. Mill. Talent)
St. Cyril of Alexandria (424 A.D.):
“He suffers no longer to be called Simon, exercising authoriy to rule over him already as having become His own. But by a title suitable to the thing, He changed his name into Peter, from the word petra (rock); for on him he was afterwards to found His Church.” (Cyril T. iv. Comm. in Joan.).
” ‘Blessed art thou ...,’ calling, I imagine, nothing else the Rock, in allusion to his name (Peter), but the immovable and stable faith of the disciple upon whom the Church of Christ is founded and fixed without danger of falling.” (Cyril, On the Holy Trinity).
“He promises to found the Church, assigning immovableness to it, as He is the Lord of strength, and over this He sets Peter as Shepherd.” (Cyril, Comm. on Matt., ad. loc.)
Origen (230-250 A.D.):
“See what the Lord said to Peter, that great foundation of the Church, and most solid Rock, upon which Christ founded the Church ...” (Origen, In Exodus. Hom. v. . 4 tom. ii).
“Look at [Peter], the great foundation of the Church, that most solid of rocks, upon whom Christ built the Church [Matt. 16:18]. And what does our Lord say to him? ‘Oh you of little faith,’ he says, ‘why do you doubt?’” [Matt. 14:31] (Homilies on Exodus 5:4 [A.D. 248]).
“Upon him (Peter), as on the earth, the Church was founded.” (Origen, Ep. ad. Rom. lib. v.c. 10, tom iv.)
“Peter, upon whom is built Christ’s Church, against which the gates of hell will not prevail.” (Origen, T. iv. In Joan. Tom. v.)
St. Hilary of Poitiers (356 A.D.)
“Blessed Simon who, after his confession of the Mystery, was set to be the foundation-stone of the Church and received the Keys of the Kingdom.” (Hilary, De Trinitate, 6:20).
“Peter, the first Confessor of the Son of God, the Foundation of the Church, ...” (Hilary, Tract in Ps. cxxxi.)
“And in truth Peter’s confession obtained a worthy recompense ....Oh! in thy designation by a new name, happy Foundation of the Church, and a Rock worthy of the building up of that which was to scatter the infernal laws of the gates of hell!” (Hilary, Comm. in Matt. c. xvi.)
St. Jerome (393 A.D.):
“Christ is not alone in being the Rock, for He granted to the Apostle Peter that he should be called ‘Rock’. “ (Jerome, Comm. on Jerimias 3:65).
“For what has Paul to do with Aristotle? Or Peter to do with Plato? For as the latter (Plato) was prince of philosophers, so was the former (Peter) prince of Apostles: on him the Lord’s Church was firmly founded, and neither rushing flood nor storm can shake it.”
(Jerome, Against the Pelagians 1:14a).
“’But,’ you [Jovinian] will say, ‘it was on Peter that the Church was founded’ [Matt. 16:18]. Well . . . one among the twelve is chosen to be their head in order to remove any occasion for division.” (Against Jovinian 1:26 [A.D. 393]).
“I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but your blessedness [Pope Damasus I], that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark on Noah will perish when the flood prevails” (Letters 15:2 [A.D. 396]).
St. Augustine (410 A.D.):
“These miserable wretches, refusing to acknowledge the Rock as Peter and to believe that the Church has received the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, have lost these very keys from their own hands.” (Augustine, Christian Combat).
“...Why! a faggot that is cut from the vine retains its shape. But what use is that shape if it is not living from the root? Come, brother, if you wish to be engrafted in the vine. It is grievous when we see you thus lying cut off. Number the bishops from the See of Peter. And, in that order of fathers, see whom succeeded whom. This is the Rock which the proud gates of hades do not conquer. All who rejoice in peace, only judge truly.” —St. Augustine, Psalmus Contra Pertem Donati.
Source: http://www.catholicbridge.com/catholic/pope_peter_rock.php
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