Posted on 02/03/2003 12:01:34 PM PST by WhatNot
It is written in Psalms, "As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us." This is amazing, because it was written before it was shown that the earth is round. It says, "as far as the east is from west," not "as far as the north is from the south." Because the earth is a sphere that spins on its axis, with an end at the North pole and an end at the South Pole, you can measure the distance between north and south. So if scripture had said, "He removed our transgressions from us as far as north from south," we could have measured the distance - a few thousand miles.
But Scripture said, "as far as the east is from the west." If you go east or west around the world, you just keep going, without end. The directions of east and west are infinte - and so is the separation God puts between us and our transgressions. So don't be hindered by sin, or by past failures. Rejoice, you are totally free. He has removed your sins, your past failures from you - as far as the east is from the west.
TODAY'S MISSION
Make an envelope marked "Removed, as far as East from West" Write on a slip of paper the one thing that is nagging at you today, a past sin or bad habit you need to get away from. Place it in the envelope and send it on its way, to the trash.
Y'know, I actually agree with you here. Even animal sacrifice was not efficacious without repentance (and in pertinent cases, restitution to the wronged), and it was only efficacious because God said that He would accept it for that purpose. The sacrifice was essentially symbolic, not efficacious in and of itself.
It doesn't matter that the Lord came into this world centuries after David died. The Lord still washed David.
This is the answer I typically get to this question. WhatNot's reply was interesting to me because it was taking a different angle. The fact that the passage from the psalm here is in the present (or past) tense doesn't pose any problem to you, even though the act of expiation wasn't made until 1000 years later?
You putting God in a "time box?"
SD
There is no need to get testy. I really am trying to engage in dialogue with you. I'm not trying to misrepresent your position, and if I paraphrase something in a way that fails properly to represent your position, please let me know.
In this case, it is true that in your #10 you stated "...but the sin nature could not be dealt with once and for all untill Christ came". However, you also posted the following earlier in the thread:
Rejoice, you are totally free. He has removed your sins, your past failures from you - as far as the east is from the west. -- original article
Do you mean the whole Psalm, the concept of Sin being removed -- your reply #7
Now I think you can see where I got the "removal" thing from.
Let me try to restate it, and see if I have a clear understanding of your belief. In the case of the "Mosaic covenant", "sin" is removed, but the "sin nature" remains. In the "new covenant", "sin" is removed, and the "sin nature" can now be dealt with? Does this sound right?
According to Christian belief, God became incarnate in Jesus at a specific point in time. It is legitimate to speak in this context of "before" and "after" the incarnation.
Yes, but you said "even though the act of expiation wasn't made until 1000 years later?"
The act of expiation, to God, is always present, like any other moment.
The tense of the verbs in Isaiah reflect this.
SD
I'm sorry for the rebuke, however if you look closely just on this thread alone you can see how people love to misquote or ignore entirely what other people are saying so that they can validate their own beliefs. In answer to your question that's about right, Christ gives us the strength we need to turn away from what our flesh loves to be fed "habitual sinning". And Christ also provides forgiveness for all sins we commit against Him, past, present and future if we truly repent, of course, only God knows your heart.
That's okay. You don't know me, and I know how these threads can get sometimes! ;o)
Is what you call "sin nature" comparable to what others believe about "original sin" (i.e., a fallen nature passed down to us from Adam and Eve)? Or is it more a matter of, as you put it in your last post, "habitual sin" that is the result of our own past choices and actions?
Foreshadowing. God loves a good story, played out in many acts.
Or, if you want to get progressive about it, God was slowly, through the ages, weaning His people away from child sacrifice, to animal sacrifice, to the One Perfect Sacrifice, that can cure all.
For that matter, why not have Jesus born at the time of Moses or Isaiah instead of when he was? He could have been executed by the Egyptians or Assyrians instead of the Romans. Why that time?
Dunno. God has to have some reason, don't ya think? For one, the time was right in the development of the people.
SD
You've made this point already. There is really no need to repeat it. I also "have" several translations of the Christian scriptures, and have read them many times.
Hey, the good news is that the saving grace of God was given to the saints before time began.
Okay, thank you for answering my question.
See what I mean, angelo, about others perverting the truth of the Bible. The atonement was given to the saints before time began, but has been revealed for us at a certain point in history.
I don't know what kind of crazy ideas you have, but I believe the "Atonement" of Jesus on the Cross happened in time, at a particular time and place. God, being eternal and outside of time, has this moment always present to Him. Therefore, He can apply the merits of this atonement to any other point in time. Whether we would consider it "before" or "after" the Crucifixion.
That's what I meant, and I venture angelo understood it without your usual condescending commentary.
Obviously, SD, is making some kind of reference to the weekly murder of the Lord that they believe happens on their altars.
Obviously, you don't know what you are talking about. Nice slur though. Did God make you say that?
SD
Maimonides speculated that the progression in the Hebrew scriptures was away from animal sacrifice; that it was originally permitted as an accommodation to the wishes of the Israelites, but was gradually restricted over time.
Yes, we've discussed this before. The "Christ event" may have accelerated this process, which was already in place. We have retained a sacramental or symbolic sacrifice, where the Jews got away from it completely.
SD
I don't know what kind of crazy ideas you have, but I believe the "Atonement" of Jesus on the Cross happened in time, at a particular time and place. ~ SoothingDave
Except that you did not say this. You said that the act of providing that atonement is always present as in a present moment in time. You really said this.
Yes, I did. I also said, "to God." Do you not think God is capable of accessing any moment in time, form his vantage outside of time? I said "the act of expiation, to God, is always present." Meaning not that the expiation is to God (though it is), but that the act is always present to God.
Do you not believe that? Can God not access that moment in time?
I can only be led that you somehow think this is the blasphemous eucharist (sp) you follow, where the Lord is sacrificed on the altar every time you "celebrate" it.
You ar eled to believe wrongly. Examine what I said, and stop trying to bring your erroneous notions about the Eucharist into eveyrthing, in a vain atempt to rpvoe yoru superiority. OK?
Address what I said, not what you are imagining me to say.
SD
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