My dear brother and sister FReepers,

At this, of all times in my lifetime, I would like nothing more than to be able to read these threads and reply to them.  I have much I would like to say.

BUT, I cannot!

Why?

Because I am trying hard to raise the finances needed to keep FreeRepublic up and running so that we can continue to share valuable information and respond to it.

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If you have no money, please come and bump the Fundraiser Thread.

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"I have seen in the last week much ugly use of religion for chest thumping and blaming "ragheads" and even blaming our decadence for the events of the last week. I would rather that we continue here, respectful of our unity in citizenship, in displaying how religion can be talked about without veering off into ugliness." (SoothingDave, 143:143)

From Thread 143:

The folks who tend to see a more "laissez faire" God talk about how the effect of our sin creates a sinful world in which such horrible things are possible, but warn against drawing conclusions about God's commanding such events.

The way I look at it is that God gives us free will. That means we are free to choose to do evil as well as good. This tragedy is the result of human evil, not divine punishment.

The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

From Thread 143:

Angelo, this is probably my most favored topic on FR . Please don't abandon it . Could you possibly start one more thread right before you shut down for the Holy days ? Please ?

Relax, dadwags. Please reread my #138 on the previous thread. I wasn't saying that I was going to shut down the threads. I was merely asking for input from other participants as to the future of this discussion group. The last eight days have understandably seen very little participation. If, as a result, those involved here no longer have a desire to continue, then we should call it a wrap. If, on the other hand, y'all wish to keep going, then I say let's keep going.

I will be offline on September 27th for Yom Kippur. Just as with the Sabbath, I will make sure a new thread is ready beforehand.

Thats not the way Paul taught it. Do you people ever read the bible?

Romans 9

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

bump

I'm a Jew, not a Christian. Paul's teachings are irrelevant to me.

And before you say it, yes, I have read the Bible (both Hebrew and Christian scriptures). And yes, I know that in the Hebrew scriptures, calamities that happened to the Israelites were seen as divine punishment. I don't see these points as being irreconcilable.

So what problem, specifically, do you have with my #5? Do you deny free will?

"So what problem, specifically, do you have with my #5? Do you deny free will?"

Sorry should have replied to all. I respect you as a Jew and honor your denial of Paul's teachings and do reject free will, it is simply an illusion for the unenlightened.

"Was your post #7 supposed to support that conclusion?"

Most assuredly.

Unless you are a jew too.

"Looks like you've come up with that slightly exotic interpretation that St. Augustine came up with."

Yea, funny how I just bypassed his sainthood and went right to the horses mouth. Paul is my apostle, and there is none between us.

and do reject free will, it is simply an illusion for the unenlightened.

Interesting. If we have no free will, then we are not responsible for our actions. For God to punish us for our actions then would be unjust.

Choosing between good and evil implies a free will faculty able to make such a choice:

I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live (Deuteronomy 30:19)

" Most of us have become skeptical of these claims."

I understand. There is a very thin line between ignorance and skepticism.

From Thread 143:

I would like to take a stab at this lingering question:) God will judge sin. I do not believe these acts of the last week are His judgement. I do not believe that his judgement comes on us while we are stil on earth. God does not make bad things happen. But He does not, will not, and cannot, stop the consequences of the sins we commit from happening

If a man commits murder, and then TRULY repents while in prison, God will forgive him when he gets to heaven. God knows the sincerity of everyones heart. But that does not mean the man should be let out of prison, or escape the death penalty if that is the consequences of his sin here on earth.

Why do bad things happen to good people. Consequences of sin in the world. Maybe you are only an occasional white lie teller, you have still chosen to sin, God did not force you to do it, but there are consequences here on earth. The consequences may seem harsh to those people but sin is sin, and all sin has consequences, and it is because WE CHOOSE to sin that the consequences have to be face.

Amen to this, Becky.