Posted on 04/17/2018 8:05:31 AM PDT by Ennis85
“Queer rights activist” and “biblical scholar” Matthew Vines “reinterpreted” Scripture verses that typically condemn homosexuality in an LGBT-“affirming” reading of the Bible at Harvard University, the Crimson reported.
Who is Vines?
Vines is a prominent speaker on pro-gay topics in the context of Christianity and authored “God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships.” The book’s controversial content resulted in WaterBrook Multnomah — which shared staff with the book’s publisher Convergent — resigning its membership with the National Religious Broadcasters in 2014.
What did he say at his Harvard talk?
During his talk Saturday, Vines “discussed six Bible verses that some religious leaders assert condemn homosexuality; he reinterpreted the verses through the lenses of more ‘affirming’ readings that place the lines in cultural and temporal contexts,” the Crimson reported. The paper didn’t say what verses Vines discussed.
In addition, Vines “argued that long-term, monogamous homosexual relationships were not a well-known cultural phenomenon until recently, and that, therefore, no Bible verse responds directly to these relationships,” the Crimson added.
Vines also responded point by point to a talk an “ex-gay” speaker and critic of homosexuality gave at a Harvard College Faith in Action meeting in February, the paper said, which occurred just prior to administrators placing the Christian student group on probation allegedly for pressuring a female leader to resign after she began dating another female.
Vines said Jackie Hill-Perry’s talk in front of Harvard College Faith in Action was one of his motivations for coming to speak, the Crimson said.
“This type of message has done unfathomable harm and destruction to LGBTQ people around the world — broken so many relationships, broken so many lives,” Vines told the crowd, the paper reported.
Vines — a Harvard student himself before leaving as a sophomore in 2010 — also discussed his experiences as a member of conservative Christian student groups at the school, the Crimson said.
“Despite some of the tensions and challenges that I had with those groups, it really was the best community that I found in my first year here,” Vines said, according to the paper. “I actually felt like I was able to get to know people and be seen and not be completely invisible.”
How did one student react?
Student Aidan L. Stoddart helped organize Vines’ talk and said his detailed reading of Scripture “creates a bridge” between Christians of differing stripes, the Crimson noted.
“I think Matthew’s a really important figure because he has a critical and mature and very deeply life-giving relationship with Scripture that is centered on love,” Stoddart added to the paper. “Because it’s based on a love of Scripture that we all share.”
We are saved only by God's grace.
Unless God changes our hearts, unstop our ears and opens our eyes we cannot hear or see the glorious gospel of Christ. Those people who continously practice sin to fly in the face of God continues a downward spiral in which there is no hope. I'm not qualified to say when or if a person reaches that level and we are to pray for the lost. However, scripture is very clear that a person heart can be harden against God to such a point that there is no hope. It is God who brings us to repentance and God simply will not do so.
Jer 14:12 Though they fast, I will not hear their cry, and though they offer burnt offering and grain offering, I will not accept them. But I will consume them by the sword, by famine, and by pestilence.”
Human depravity is a fact of life that takes people, but not God, by surprise, who before the foundation of the earth knew exactly what he was going to to about man’s hopeless condition - redemption by the sacrifice of His own precious Son knowing man would be completely helpless to fix his terminally depraved, willful-sinning condition.
Your problem is not distinguishing those in Christ from those outside Christ. This discussion is about those in Christ, who are “saved to the uttermost”, are under “no condemnation”, and of whom God says, “Their sins and iniquities I remember no more” (Heb. 8:12;10:17).
As I said, don’t think your sins are any less “depraved” than the sodomites. So don’t condemn the Christian sodomite and don’t let Satan condemn you when you sin, because the Christian sodomite and you are the righteousness of God in Christ (2 Cor 5:21).
How so? Because righteous is not what the Christian sodomite or you do - righteousness is God’s gift (Rom. 5:17). Righteous is RIGHT STANDING with God. Once the sodomite and you are in Christ the sodomite Christian and you have right standing with God. Never judge the sodomites’ or your standing with God by their or your performance. Always judge the Christian sodomite and yourself by both of your STANDING with God which NEVER changes.
— Before receiving Christ, were you a sinner because you sinned? No. You were born a sinner. Were you righteous because you did some good deeds? No. You remained a sinner because you were of Adam’s seed doomed to sin and death. Of yourself, you could never change your depraved condition.
— Likewise, after receiving Christ, were you righteous because of your righteous deeds? No. You were born again - a new creation in Christ - you were BORN RIGHTEOUS. Are you a sinner because you sin after receiving Christ? No. You remain righteous because you are of God’s seed destined for life and blessing forever. You are now eternally God’s seed and you can never change your blessed standing with God.
Otherwise, you are saying Adam’s sin was greater than Christ’s sacrifice. Is Adam greater than Christ, the Son of the Living God? Of course not and Scripture confirms it when it quotes Jesus as saying, “I will NEVER leave or forsake [the Christian sodomite or] you” (Heb 13:5).
I would suggest a study in the gospel of the grace of Christ in the NT especially in Romans and Galatians. Once you accept the truth of the gospel of the grace of Christ, maybe I can share with you a secret to defeating Satan no matter what, as described in Isaiah 54:17 and Romans 5:17.
Not so. Based upon what you wrote, I would suggest that you just accept anyone who says that they are a Christian as a Christian. Furthermore, you seem to want to complain that I simply don't understand the grace of God. You seem absolutely fixated on this topic rather than understanding the whole gospel. Here you have a pro-gay activist who wants to "re-interpert" the Bible to suit his agenda and you want to lecture me that I do not understand the doctrine of grace.
Just because someone states they are in Christ does not mean it is so. Just because this person in the article makes these claims does not make it so. Trouble is these days that people accept every Tom, Dick and Harry that comes along spouting some goofy doctrine and "re-interperting" scripture to fit their goals. Paul had no problem in putting these types of people out of the church and he blatantly chastised the Corinthian church for allowing such apostasy in their mist.
I would refer you to Paul's instructions:
...
Tit 1:9-11 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it. For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach.
...
Tit 2:1 But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine.
Do you honestly think the principles espoused in this article represents sound doctrine?
The doctrine of grace has NOTHING to do with false teachers that arises in the church. It sounds to me like you cannot distinguish a false teacher from a genuine one.
Tit 3:9-11 But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.
Merely showing what the BIBLE lists as things that GOD requires.
Welcome to the buffet table.
Choose what you like - reject the rest.
Anyone choosing to do this may borrow my mirror.
I know that there were close relationships among men in ancient times that modern homosexuals wouldn’t necessarily consider to be gay. Such relationships were more analogous to the bond of brotherhood among modern soldiers.
As I interpret that one, a cautionary tale against both incest and drunkenness.
Non-Christians are those who have never received Christ, die outside of Christ, and are lost forever unfortunately.
To quote your doctrine, "people who continuously practice sin to fly in the face of God continues a downward spiral in which there is no hope". Your doctrine espouses that a Christian can lose his salvation by sinning too much. That is a doctrine of salvation by works not matter how you try to embellish it and that doctrine is condemned and twice cursed (Gal 1:6-9).
The gospel of the grace of Christ IS the gospel. There is no other. There is no justification by grace AND works of the law. And to the degree you rely on works for your justification, to that degree you have FALLEN from grace.
If by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.Rom 11:6.
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.Gal 5:4.
Your doctrine of works to stay saved is "another gospel" which, again is twice cursed.
I marvel that you have turned away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.Gal 1:6-9.
Your argument about telling which person is a Christian and which person is not, is a back-door way of getting to your same conclusion - somebody's (and your) works must meet YOUR standards, or YOU judge whether they (and you) are saved by their (and your) works. That makes you subject to Satan's accusations and condemnation when you sin and also makes you a candidate for the warnings in Galatians.
I think I'm done with you. Take care and good luck.
Christ took care of the sin problem, so there’s only ONE requirement left for justification: Christ.
Those who receive Christ, are in Christ and are saved to the uttermost forever by grace.
Those who refuse Christ and die refusing Christ, are outside of Christ are lost forever unfortunately.
SO?
Genesis 13:13 must mean SOMETHING...
HMMMmmm...
I thought it was UNBELIEF that caused the losing...
This is how I understand it; too.
You didn’t lose your sinful standing outside of Christ because you did good deeds did you? Why would you lose your righteous standing in Christ because of the sin of unbelief?
God fully judged and condemn all sins of everyone including unbelief past, present, and future on the body of Christ on the cross 2000 years ago. How could God condemn your sin of unbelief now if he already judged that same sin 2000 years ago? That would be unrighteous double jeopardy and God is not unrighteous.
As you were once born into sin as the seed of Adam that you yourself could not change, so now, you are born again into righteousness (righteousness is a gift, not what you do (Rom. 5:17)) as the seed of the Second Adam that you yourself cannot change. Once you are born again as God’s child, you are forever saved “to the uttermost”
Don't ask me; but the Fella that wrote the Book!
Don’t forget who the author of Hebrews is talking to: the Hebrews, the Jews.
Entering into rest is not about how one is justified by Christ, but how one lives a victorious Christian life on this earth. Israel was FIRST delivered from Egypt and Pharaoh by going through the waters of the Red Sea, a picture of one being delivered from the world and Satan though receiving Christ.
Entering into rest, however, is how a Christian walks by grace into his destiny of victory and rest in God’s finished work. Millions of Israelites failed to walk into their promised land of rest because they were consumed by self righteousness and self effort which blocks the faith, belief, and rest of grace. Nevertheless, they has still been delivered from Egypt. In the same way, there are many defeated Christians who never realize the victorious rest of Christ’s finished work and the destiny God has for them on this earth, but that doesn’t mean they’re not saved.
Again, Jesus died 2000 years ago for everyone’s sins of unbelief. Receiving Christ is the ONLY issue of eternal justification. Learning to trust the Lord and rest in his finished work is how we become victorious Chritians.
Lazarus was raised from the dead, another picture of our being born again into Christ and life. But when Lazarus walked out of the gave, he was still bound by grave clothes and Christ commanded those around him loose Lazarus of those grave clothes. Likewise, when we are born again, we are still bound in our mind, will, emotions, and body, by our former life. Christ commands his people around us to help us loose those bondages and help set us free. But bound, defeated Christians are still saved and going to heaven. God just wants his children to live a victorious life HERE and NOW.
Full circle to the application here. What was my initial post? “There’s a lot of sodomite Christians. Jesus saves by grace, not works. But to call sodomy normal is like saying “I’m a Christian and have leprosy but leprosy is normal, so I don’t need healing or help.” Keeps a person from finding health and wholeness.”
Another way of saying, “Here is a defeated Christian who probably doesn’t know, as many Christians, probably including you, don’t understand.” Sin is NOT defeated by the works of the law which actually make sin worse (1 Cor. 15:56). Sin, guilt, and condemnation is defeated BY GRACE. “For sin shall not have dominion over you because you are under grace, and NOT under the law” (Rom. 6:14).
We can do this; but fact will still remain that if a believing Christian somehow is convinced to no longer believe; then he is NOT going to Heaven.
1. But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
3. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;
5. if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;
6. if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
7. and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men
8. (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)--
9. if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
10. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority. Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings;
11. yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord.
12. But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
13. They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.
You misapply 2 Peter 2 who as an apostle to the Jews (Gal 2:8) is mainly addressing the Jews and warning them about not relying on their own righteousness and self effort, the common theme regarding the Jews. The NT NEVER address Christians as "the ungodly". In the meantime, you are trying to turn "believing" into a work, thus espousing the false doctrine for justification by works.
The gospel of the grace of Christ IS the gospel. There is no other. There is no justification by grace AND works of the law. And to the degree you rely on works (including "believing" as a work) for your justification, to that degree you have FALLEN from grace.
"If by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." Rom 11:6.
"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." Gal 5:4.
Your doctrine of works to stay saved is "another gospel" which is twice cursed.
"I marvel that you have turned away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed." Gal 1:6-9.
Your doctrine of maintaining your salvation by the "work" of belief makes you subject to Satan's accusations and condemnation when you commit sins of unbelief, and espousing such to others makes you a candidate for the warnings in Galatians.
I think we're done here. Take care and good luck.
Christ first mentions it when dealing with persons who said that Christ’s miracles were done by the power of Satan. That was the context in which the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was first spoken of in the Bible.
I NEVER stated they were Christians to begin with. 1 John tells us that believers do not practice sin.
Your argument about telling which person is a Christian and which person is not, is a back-door way of getting to your same conclusion
Paul tells us to judge those inside the church to see if they are of the true faith. Christ warns us of false teachers as well as Peter, John and James. So, it isn't my argument. There is no "back door".
““Queer rights activist” and “biblical scholar” Matthew Vines “reinterpreted” Scripture verses”
Old news.
Satan has always lied, this sounds like just another example of that.
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