Why John Kerry turned against the Vietnam War

San Francisco Chronicle ^ | Sunday, March 7, 2004 | Gerald Nicosia

[secretagent]

For those suspicious of Kerry, try FR's own wintersoldier.com

http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/

Also Hon keeps track of this story.

[VadeRetro]

Doesn't mean it isn't hearsay, of course. But he appears to have cited his sources.

[optimistically_conservative]

I may be wrong. Let me know.

http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=20040216184347380

That same disrespect for the truth was in operation during the Winter Soldier hearings. After all the atrocities were dutifully taken down, the transcript was inserted into the Congressional Record by Sen. Mark O. Hatfield, who asked the commandant of the Marine Corps to investigate the many crimes, particularly those perpetrated by Marines.

"The results of this investigation, carried out by the Naval Investigative Service are interesting and revealing," said historian Guenter Lewy in his book America in Vietnam. His history of the war was one of the first to rely on previously classified documents in the National Archives. "Many of the veterans, although assured that they would not be questioned about atrocities they might have committed personally, refused to be interviewed. One of the active members of the VVAW told investigators that the leadership had directed the entire membership not to cooperate with military authorities."

One black Marine who testified at Winter Soldier did agree to talk with the investigators. Although he had claimed during the hearings that Vietnam was "one huge atrocity" and a "racist plot," he could provide no details of any actual crimes. Lewy said the question of atrocities had not occurred to the Marine until he left Vietnam. His testimony had been substantially "assisted" by a member of the Nation of Islam.

"But the most damaging finding consisted of the sworn statements of several veterans, corroborated by witnesses, that they had in fact not attended the hearing in Detroit," Lewy wrote. "One of them had never been to Detroit in his life." Fake "witnesses" had appropriated the names of real Vietnam veterans.

Lewy pointed out that incidents similar to those described at the Winter Soldier hearings did occur. "Yet these incidents either (as in the destruction of hamlets) did not violate the law of war or took place in breach of existing regulations," Lewy wrote. Those responsible were tried and punished.

"In either case, they were not, as alleged, part of a 'criminal policy,'" Lewy said. Despite the antiwar movement's contention that military policies protecting civilians in Vietnam were routinely ignored, Lewy said the rules of engagement were implemented and taken very seriously, although at times the rules were not communicated properly and the training was inadequate. That's what made the failures so notable.

"The VVAW's use of fake witnesses and the failure to cooperate with military authorities and to provide crucial details of the incidents further cast serious doubt on the professed desire to serve the causes of justice and humanity," Lewy wrote. "It is more likely that this inquiry, like others earlier and later, had primarily political motives and goals." (Although it has been thoroughly discredited, the Winter Soldier "investigation" is still being cited today as "proof" of American servicemen's barbarity. Writer Susan Brownmiller referenced it in Newsweek in a 1993 story on gang rape by soldiers.)

[x]

See the recent article on Kerry's father. I think it was in The New Republic. Richard Kerry disapproved of his son's enlisting and encouraged him to take a more public and outspoken antiwar stance.

This looks like another "eerie similarity" between JFK I and JFK II: both Kennedy and Kerry had fathers with unorthodox and potentially embarassing views on foreign policy. Of course Kerry's father didn't have the fortune of Joseph Kennedy and didn't live to see his son's Presidential campaign, but Richard Kerry's influence on his son is rather disturbing.

Speaking of the New Republic, they sent a reporter up to Massachusetts in 2000, to assess Kerry's chances of becoming Al Gore's running mate. The writer was originally pro-Kerry, but after seeing how much politicians in Kerry's home state despised the Senator, changed his mind.

[secretagent]

"I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that several
months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably
discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes
committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents but crimes
committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all
levels of command. It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did
happen in Detroit - the emotions in the room and the feelings of the men
who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam. They relived the absolute
horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.

"They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off
heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned
up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians,
razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Ghengis Khan, shot cattle and dogs
for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of
South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war and the normal and
very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this
country.

"We call this investigation the Winter Soldier Investigation."

-- John Kerry, testifying before the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations,
April 23, 1971

[secretagent]

Thanks for the tips. FR has the article on Kerry's father:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1089641/posts

I look forward to reading it.

[secretagent]

Yes, that text gets cited a lot. But consider:

After Kerry testified before the committee, Sen. Mark O. Hatfield, an Oregon Republican, asked for an investigation into the alleged atrocities.

In his book, America in Vietnam, author Guenter Lewy noted a subsequent inquiry by the Naval Investigative Service that found that many of the veterans who spoke in Detroit refused to be interviewed even when offered immunity, and some who reported the most grisly atrocities were fake witnesses who had used the names of real veterans.

In an interview, Lewy termed the Winter Soldier project "completely unreliable and untrustworthy" and doubts that Vietnam War atrocities were officially condoned or as widespread as the Detroit testimony indicated.

Lewy said he does not recall if he saw a copy of the naval investigative report or was briefed on its contents. "I'm quite confident the information is authentic," he said. Paul O'Donnell, a spokesman for the Naval Criminal Investigative Service, said officials were searching for a copy of the report.

Bobby Muller, president of the Vietnam Veterans of America Foundation and a Marine Corps veteran of the war, worked with the Vietnam Veterans Against the War. He stands by the Winter Soldier project and was unaware of any investigation that called into question the truthfulness of the participants.

http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1078025/posts

I don't think they've found that NIS report yet.

[VadeRetro]

Thanks for that. He didn't misrepresent where he got the charges.

However, I hadn't realized until this thread that he was originally skeptical, especially since when he was before the Senate FRC he tried to reinforce the hearsay testimony with recollections from his own service.

So he came out of Vietnam believing that most soldiers served honorably, went to one anti-war rally, flipped, and within months was selling the new line to the Senate. Hmmmm. A vision of the future.

[Jim_Curtis]

Are they dumb or just playing dumb? Haven't these media weenies read the Harvard Crimson article that has been posted all over the internet for about a month? Kerry was pro-communist expansion and rabidly against Vietnam involvement long before he landed there.

[secretagent]

Yes I hadn't read that either, that Kerry had initial scepticism.

I can see suspecting that more My Lais awaited discovery, since the Army didn't seem zealous in uncovering and prosecuting the first one. On the other hand, Mark Lane had used bogus atrocity stoies, and he and his friend had

Kerry had a "conversion experience" at the WSI, it sounds like. Picked up the zeitgeist and ran with it.

So he came out of Vietnam believing that most soldiers served honorably, went to one anti-war rally, flipped, and within months was selling the new line to the Senate. Hmmmm. A vision of the future.

More than a bit of the method actor in Kerry, I think. He gets into his character.

I don't want the nation dragged into his drama.

[GailA]

Look what I found, check out the yellow marks...hanoi jane, hanoi john & mark lane.

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/flash_3_3.html

[secretagent]

Thanks for the Crimson tip. Kerry said he was an "internationalist". Sounds a bit commie.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1075893/posts

[MissAmericanPie]

Why John Kerry turned against the Viet Nam War? They told him he couldn't kill civilian women, children, and old people. Evidently he wouldn't listen to the brass so instead of putting that straight jacket on him, they filled his chest with medals, in record time, and shipped him home.

[secretagent]

Thanks. Another Professor of Kerry Studies at FR University!

So Kerry had that proximity with Fonda. And later organizing the WSI, which happened Jan 31, 1971 - 4 months later.

[secretagent]

I've heard that rumor about Zumwalt and Kerry, but have batted it away as unverifiable.

Do you believe it?. I know he has detailed some of the accidental civilian deaths he caused. Do you think he's hiding some others?

[MissAmericanPie]

No one gets that many medals in four months without a story behind it. Especially not that idiot. It's been reported that the brass said he needed to be in a straight jacket, that Kerry had contributed to far too many civilian casualties. I don't think that statement has been debunked, if it has, it's news to me.

If Florida 2000 is an example of the demonrat mind set, when found with hand in cookie jar, scream fraud and point.
Then Kerry's anti-war caniption fit might have been the same kind of cover.

[secretagent]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1089641/posts

Kerry's father shaped his views.

Thanks to x for the tip.

[GailA]

I've got a feeling they were a lot closer than hanoi jane and hanoi john have stated. They doth protest to much. And who would take the word of known liars? I sure wouldn't. Of course the demonRATS would believe the devil himself if it would oust Dubya for them.

[savedbygrace]

Kerry totally opposed the event because, at the time, he did not believe Americans had committed any atrocities in Vietnam, beyond the notorious massacre of 500 Vietnamese women and children at My Lai.

This doesn't seem to square with Kerry's own admission that he committed atrosities in Vietnam.

[secretagent]

Zumwalt, now dead, was the only brass I know of who reportedly said that Kerry killed too many civilians. And only one person has reported this - W. Scott Thompson.

I don't mean anyone has debunked Thompson, just that it only looks like a news lead, not a news story.

This thread has a lot on topic:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1080150/posts