Posted on 08/23/2015 8:07:24 PM PDT by markomalley
Filmmaker, evangelist and renowned bible prophecy teacher Joel Richardson says it is a time of change for the church, especially when it comes to teachings about the End Times and the rapture. The author of the New York Times bestseller “The Islamic Antichrist” recently appeared with Joe Schimmel on Rick Wiles’s TruNews radio program to discuss the what he believes is the false doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture.
Wiles himself supports the post-tribulation position, stating, “I personally do not believe that by the year 2020, any credible person will be teaching the secret pre-trib rapture doctrine. I think the events that are coming in the next five years will utterly destroy the doctrine.”
The pre-tribulation school of thought has been an important force in American Christianity for decades, with proponents such as Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye and Thomas Ice. This school holds believers will be raptured before the great tribulation during the End Times, thus avoiding it. In contrast, Richardson believes the rapture will not occur until during the tribulation period. Thus, believing Christians will not be spared the persecution and calamities of the End Times.
Richardson is featured on a DVD exploring the issue entitled “Left Behind or Led Astray?” During the film, Richardson explains what he sees as the crucial importance of the issue.
“It’s one of the premiere pastoral issues of our day. If you’re a pastor that’s not preparing your people to face potentially the Antichrist and the Great Tribulation, in this hour, simply because your denomination teaches it or whatever, personally I think you’re failing in your role as a shepherd and a pastor.”
(Excerpt) Read more at wnd.com ...
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>> “Still, we are on much firmer ground than they were.” <<
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No, we are not!
And Yeshua never said their faith was not sufficient.
Paul made it plain in Hebrews 3 and 4 that the gospel he preached was the same gospel that Moses preached, and that it is of no effect without faith; that is the difference.
The 144,000 are composed of 12,000 from each tribe.
The Old Covenant depended upon obedience - the new on faithfulness.
The Old Covenant has been “fulfilled” in Jesus - completed, in other words - so it no long applies. More than just diet and sacrifice were changed - the entire relationship between man and God is new. We now stand before God perfected in Jesus, with our sins as far as the East from the West. Moses could never say that!
All the difference in the world.
Both covenants depend on obedience and faith.
The promise is that he writes his Torah on our hearts. It was made to them as well as to us.
1John 2:
[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
[6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
[7] Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
Yet Gen 6 teaches us that the angels are capable of reproduction with human women... Why do they have seed?
The Kingdom will be filled with those (Gentiles & Jews) still living but who didn't take the Mark.
rather, those who obtain the Seal of YHWH... Which would require not taking the seal of the adversary.
Christians who have been raptured previously will return with Jesus as He establishes his Kingdom.
Well, we can agree on that much - but then what? We all just hang around making sure those jews and gentiles raise their babies right?
That seems to be the debate in the bolded above. Which many seem to omit in these discussions on the internet. What does the Bible teach us of 'when' the Wrath of God is poured out? Some say the end like Richardson and some look at the language used in Revelation chapter 6 where on the sixth seal broken we have:
And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
The above happens before the trumpet and bowls (vials) judgements.
Sometimes it is hard to pin the "wrath" rapture theorists as it is for the pre-trib theories. What is important? What was commanded. Continue to work, preach the Gospel, watch, be ready, be approved and live holy lives until His Coming. Amen.
That was advice for all eras/ages. We would be wise to put the above first.
Darby was strange IMO, but never saw anything that he was into numerology nor "Bible Codes." You might be thinking of Harold Camping who was into that and look how that turned out...not so good.
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>> “The above happens before the trumpet and bowls (vials) judgements.” <<
How did you determine that?
Chapter 6 covers it all, the breaking of all of the 6 seals, and that statement is at the end of the chapter, looking foreward to the seventh seal.(IOW none of that has happened yet)
You don’t see a difference between the seals, trumpets and bowls?
Or is it you see them all happening at the same time?
Jesus told us what to do - go and spread the gospel.
Yet, they have seed.
Their offspring have no resurrection. The angels were banished to the lowest depth of Hell.
Right, for crossing 'kinds'. Edenic law says everything according to kind... Their bastard children have no part in the resurrection because they are outside of YHWH's design.
That does imply angels having natural children - those who did not 'leave their first estate'. Angels have seed. Seed has purpose.
Maybe you didn’t get what I was saying.
There are no chapters in the word.
The divisions were created for discussion purposes, and in many cases are totally inappropriate.
There is no way of attaching an exact temporal fix to the fears that are being voiced at the end of chapter six. All it is saying is that they are aware of the coming doom. It could very well mean that they have finally read the word, and have figured out what they are in for.
Revelation 7: 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, ONE HUNDRED FOURTY FOUR THOUSAND sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel
5 from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand,
6 from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand,
7 from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand,
8 from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.
The Bible SPECIFICALLY mentions bloodlines.
So stow the hogwash about being grafted in. That applies to salvation, has nothing to do with prophecy of end time players.
John in the first 2 chapters SPECIFICALLY mentions the church and uses the word church.
Sooo...IF John was continuing talking about "the church" in Revelation he would say church. But NOWHERE after chapter 3 are the churches addressed or mentioned.
After that everything references Israel.
Revelation 12 describes the woman who gives birth to Christ, then later is chased into the wilderness.
The Church didn't give birth to Christ, Christ came through Israel.
Gentiles might be grafted in, but the promise is still through Israel and ALL of latter Revelation mentions or references Israel
What does that mean?
Those who left Heaven & took on human form produced offspring and were thrown in hell on account of it.
No, specifically, they crossbred kinds... THAT is the problem.
Angels aren't in Heaven procreating and neither will we.
How do you know? Because of one verse that you may well be misinterpreting? Why do angels have seed?
God's purpose for marriage is to procreate and since there is no marriage in Heaven, there will be no procreating in Heaven.
So plants marry? and animals marry?
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>> “So stow the hogwash about being grafted in. That applies to salvation, has nothing to do with prophecy of end time players.” <<
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You are totally wrong on that.
Without grafting in we are dead.
Israel is all that will be saved, so if we are not grafted in or genetically Israel, we have no hope.
>> “John in the first 2 chapters SPECIFICALLY mentions the church and uses the word church.” <<
That is simply confusion on your part. there is no church, only an assembly. (do you understand the difference?)
What you call “the church” is Israel, Yeshua’s assembly, and we are there until the First Resurrection, at the Last Trump, which is the event that ends the tribulation of the saints.
>> “Revelation 12 describes the woman who gives birth to Christ” <<
Wrong again!
It describes Israel, from which Yeshua came. The term “The Woman” refers to Israel in every instance. What chapter 12 is speaking of is a display in the sky, of the constellation Bethula (Virgo) at sunset at Tishri 1, the day of trumpets.
>> “The Church didn’t give birth to Christ, Christ came through Israel.” <<
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There is no church!
That is dispensational idiocy that is nowhere to be found in the word, except for the mis-translation of Ekklesia, which is the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
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I'm the one with 'predisposed' theories? I'm not the one with chunked-and-formed mass-produced theology...
The Bible SPECIFICALLY mentions bloodlines.
Right. and Judah... The House of Judah... you know them as Jews... They make up just the tribe of Judah, and the tribe of Benjamin. The REST of the tribes are the House of Israel and are ***NOT*** Jews. My point is that the Jews are but 24000 of the 144000... Explicitly so, because of bloodline. So '144000 Jewish Evangelicals' is incorrect.
So stow the hogwash about being grafted in. That applies to salvation, has nothing to do with prophecy of end time players.
Oh it has everything to do with the end time players... Might try to find the two witnesses in the OT... You might just change your mind.
John in the first 2 chapters SPECIFICALLY mentions the church and uses the word church. Sooo...IF John was continuing talking about "the church" in Revelation he would say church. But NOWHERE after chapter 3 are the churches addressed or mentioned.
First of all, your idea of 'church' is misguided. The ekklesia was baptized in the Red Sea and took bread and wine from within the loins of Abraham. There is no difference.
Secondly, as to your position on the text, he is speaking to specific churches, which ends with an abrupt scene change. The passage is it's own parenthetical. To exclude the church from following scenes is presumptuous.
After that everything references Israel.
Right. ALL Israel.
Revelation 12 describes the woman who gives birth to Christ, then later is chased into the wilderness. The Church didn't give birth to Christ, Christ came through Israel.
TRUE. And her offspring are those who have the testimony of Yeshua AND keep the commandments.
Gentiles might be grafted in, but the promise is still through Israel and ALL of latter Revelation mentions or references Israel
You don't see what you are saying. Gentiles are 'without covenant'. Either you are Israel, or you are not. If you are grafted in, that means you ARE Israel, and it has always been so. A mixed multitude came up out of Egypt, not just Abraham's sons. They all became Israel. One Torah for the resident and the stranger.
Sounds like the events of yet future is witnessed by John:
Revelation 6:
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?(KJV)
Understand no chapters but easy to follow. The Wrath of the Lamb occurs then the servants of God are sealed and then the seventh seal is broken.
After that the other events of the trumpets and then bowls occur.
So you see all seals, trumpets and bowl judgements happening within the same period of time? Meaning you do believe these are judgements and God’s Wrath poured out? Which of course must happen if the ekklesia is to be spared God’s Wrath.
Sage words. I agree.
The wrath of God is after the trib, right after we are taken to the sea of glass mingled with fire for the wedding supper.
The stuff in the 6th seal is not wrath related, but the fear spoken at the end of the chapter is about the coming wrath, so it probably would have fit better in the 7th chapter.
Too late to change it; it would just confuse more people.
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