Posted on 01/04/2018 10:53:07 PM PST by JockoManning
Assumptions, understandings, impressions:
1. The Pope's results of his personality and goals appear to have created a massive and intense collection of controversial and probably more than a few unBiblical dynamics, assertions, policies, puzzle pieces currently in the RCC and on the wider global stage.
2. People of good Christian Biblical heart, values, intent, goals, feelings exist in the RCC and in Protestant circles. It 'ought' to be possible for them to be mutually supportive, iron-sharpening-iron; yoke-fellows in these dramatic and increasingly trying times.
3. What understandings, perspectives, deeds would the RCC's on FR wish to successfully transmit into the observant and sincere Evangelicals on FR about this broader situation affecting us all and the globe--Christians and non-Christians?
4. What would the RCC's like to experience, receive, have from dialogue, interaction etc. from the Evangelicals and other Protestants during this trying time?
5. Is there any consensus among the RCC's on FR about the probable outcomes of this Pope's doings within and outside of the Vatican? What good? What not so good?
6. How do the RCC's think the Protestants could most wisely respond to such resulting religious, cultural and political impacts of this Pope?
7. What else would the RCC's hereon like the Protestants to think, consider and keep in mind about all such?
We are NOT interested in a mutual brick-bat-throwing contest on this thread. Let us lay aside any impulse but a desire in brotherly love to be mutually understanding and supportive. Sincerely,
JM
Catholic here. Appreciate the thoughtful questions.
I’m not even close to conversant in the liturgical differences between our branches of Christianity.
With regards to our current Pope, I’m not at all comfortable with his attitude and actions. Of course we’ve had a number of bad situations in my lifetime, much of which were ultimately leadership problems. Humans are terribly fallible, even Popes. That’s my personal opinion, which may not respect church teachings. I pray that God cleans house.
Bump
We, in our household, are quite generous in our attitude toward the humanness in us all--including in any Pope or other religious leader. We have to be--to be Biblical. We all have clay feet; do what we wish we didn't; don't do what we wish we did--like St Paul.
However, when any religious leader over-much believes his own press reports; becomes haughty, authoritarian, prissy, demanding, manipulative ... then we begin to feel like running far away from them.
When a leader begins to sound and act like they presume to be God-ordained to CONTROL the sheep, manipulate the sheep, the public, political spheres etc., then we really feel like running the other way. And plenty of Protestant leaders act that way.
We expect God to clean house. He says in His word that judgment will begin with the House of God. That's a very sobering verse. How and when--remains to be seen--though sometimes it seems like He has begun. We expect all groups, leaders who have spent most of their time building their own human kingdoms vs helping build God's Kingdom--will be removed and possibly worse.
We doubt it could happen too soon.
Is there anything you think Protestants could do regarding the Pope's stuff and his impact on RC's to help support those in the pews standing strong in Biblical New Testament attitudes and behaviors? ... besides praying.
We aren't talking about those areas where reasonable people can differ on various verses. We are talking about those verses where the meaning is starkly clear and simple. And there are plenty of those that cover the main aspects of our relating to/with God and with each other.
For 500 years we’ve been going the route that Israel went with the apostasy of Baal of Peor, in Israel’s case, seduction by intermarriage with foreign women, in our case, the Pandora’s box of divorce. RCC was the last church to resist divorce & all the rest. “When the Lord returns, will He find Faith on earth?”
...divorce & all the rest...
Though I don't know if I'd label it that or pride, selfishness, flesh, control freakism vs submitting to God etc. All congregations/flavors of all religions have such problems. Sadly. Christianity is supposed to be different.
But then those are the things that give divorce etc. all the destructive energy.
Actually, seriously authentic Christians are different.
Will He find faith on the earth, indeed.
Though He has to be the one to clean us up. Else we are all snotty nosed brats in our own strength. Though we are certainly called to cooperate with His cleaning process.
As a lifelong Protestant I can say that a critical distinction between P and RC is the recognition that human institutions are corrupt. Corruption always emanates from the top down. The institutionalization of the Faith will always be marked by human corruption. Only in a personal relationship with Christ is it possible to overcome evil. No intermediary is equal to the task.
Not a distinction at all. My ancestry is Italian. We saw Borgia popes up close. If we didn't believe that Christ Himself was the real head of the Church and was ultimately going to ensure that the "gates of hell would not prevail against it", we'd despair of the institution faster than any of you.
And by the way, I am a human institution, so I can go corrupt too. And I don't have any Scriptural guarantees to the contrary. You are actually not solving the problem of human corruptibility by replacing the institution with individuals.
Thank-you and God Bless.
However, anyone watching closely in even Evangelical and Pentecostal circles can observe a flesh-driven elevation of religious leaders to positions of not just serving as intermediaries for groveling sheep--but objects of more or less worship by said sheep. Dreadful.
Any group is made up of ... drum roll ... individuals. Certainly you are correct.
We are all called to submit one to another ... to exhort one another daily ... to prefer one another ... etc.
And humility servant-heartedness is to be the hallmark of leaders--not just in pontificating symbolism but from the heart and bone marrow outwardly.
Thanks for your kind encouragement.
Great question.
When the Fathers of Vatican I were defining the dogma of infallibility, they had in front of them the case of Honorius I, who was anathematized as a heretic by a council and later Popes. That happened precisely because Honorius tried to play cute with Sergius and the Monothelite heretics and didn't condemn them.
This prior example is important because it shows that "infallibility", as we define it, does *not* mean that every Pope is above reproach or cannot be personally condemned as a heretic when he fails to do his job. It just means that Christ will not allow the Pope's personal failings--under any circumstances--to solidify as official teaching. Because the Pope serves Christ as a regent of the Church, a temporary head who acts on his Lord's behalf--not as a dictator who can do as he pleases.
What you are watching unfold now toward Francis shows what we actually believe about the papacy. Francis has no power to change what the Church has always taught, and if he tries to, a) he will ultimately fail and b) in the meantime Catholics are not obliged to follow him into error and are, actually, bound to stick to the truth and correct him as necessary. St. Paul was never called Head of the Apostles and never ever took that title away from St. Peter--but he had to correct Peter's behavior when need be.
Thanks.
Headed back to bed.
As Claud quite correctly points out, "all human institutions are corrupt" includes the "human institution" you see in the mirror every day. In fact -- and I think you can probably see this in your own lived experience -- Joe Schmoe is probably the least likely person to give a sound judgement WRT his own sins. He's too personally invested in them. (Part of the spiritual reason for the sacrament of marriage, BTW.)
Someone else -- almost anyone else, even someone who is personally a bigger sinner than Joe (as long as he has no personal investment in Joe's sins, which is not true WRT Pope Francis and divorce-and-remarriage, sadly) -- is more likely than Joe to judge Joe with justice.
But I would submit to you that that's not even the question you should ask. The question you should ask is, "What system did Christ himself set up on earth to propagate the Gospel and be a home for Christians?" WWJD, in other words.
If Christ is the perfect God-man, it stands to reason that the system he set up would be, relatively speaking in a fallen world, the perfect system. It also stands to reason that that system would endure until the end of time, because Jesus said as much in the Great Commission.
And only the Catholics and Orthodox even claim to have institutional continuity back to Christ and the Apostles. There are no other possible candidates.
Respect. Part of respect is not trying to tell us what we believe. (Not referring to you here, Jocko, but to certain others I have no desire to name. They know who they are.)
It should be possible for anyone here who has ever served in the military to understand the concept of "saluting the uniform" and apply that to understanding how Catholics can be loyal to the Papacy in the abstract, and loyal to this Pope in particular, as long as he acts within the bounds of his office and his charism.
When he goes astray from that, we have every right to ignore him (e.g., in re "global warming") when he's speaking of things not germane to the faith, and oppose him "to his face" when he teaches things that are inimical to the faith.
I think no matter our denominations we can all agree that Joel Osteen practices the Dark Arts and is a servant of Satan.
Re RCs, I miss JP2!
“Go into all the world and share the gospel” is not an admonition to establish an hierarchical corporation.
“You are my rock and upon this rock I will build my church” is not a delineator of global leadership.
“My kingdom is not of this world” rightly distinguishes the nature of the church as eternal with God, not as a wealth building enterprise on planet earth.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.