Posted on 03/13/2019 6:40:19 AM PDT by Antoninus
In part one of this post, I looked at the vision of Perpetua—one of the earliest authentic Christian documents to describe directly a Purgatory-like state and to highlight the efficacy of prayer petitions for the dead.
Others writing during the patristic age also expounded upon this idea in more or less detail, among them St. Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Origen, St. Augustine of Hippo, and St. Caesarius of Arles. One of the most clear references to Purgatory appears in a late 4th century work by Saint Gregory of Nyssa, entitled: “On the Soul and the Resurrection”. St. Gregory writes:
“For [God], the one goal is this: the perfection of the universe through each man individually, the fulfillment of our nature. Some of us are purged of evil in this life, and some are cured of it through fire in the after-life, some have not had the experience of good and evil in life here….The different degrees of virtue or vice in our life will be revealed in our participating more quickly or more slowly in the blessedness we hope for. The extent of the healing with depend on the amount of evil present in each person. The healing of the soul will be purification from evil and this cannot be accomplished without suffering…”Building upon this notion about 200 years later, another Gregory—Pope Saint Gregory the Great—was the first to set forth the notion of Purgatory as Catholics now understand it. As part of his famous Dialogues, he wrote:
“…It is plain that in such state as a man departs out of this life, in the same he is presented in judgment before God. But yet we must believe that before the day of judgment there is a Purgatory fire for certain small sins: because our Savior says, “That he which speaketh blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, that it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come [Matthew 12:32].”Here we see Gregory offering a scriptural proof for Purgatory, out of the mouth of Jesus Himself. He elaborates on this point, citing Saint Paul's first epistle to the Corinthians, chapter 3:
“Out of which sentence we learn, that some sins are forgiven in this world, and some other may be pardoned in the next: for that which is denied concerning one sin, is consequently understood to be granted touching some other. But yet this, as I said, we have not to believe but only concerning little and very small sins, as, for example, daily idle talk, immoderate laughter, negligence in the care of our family (which kind of offenses scarce can they avoid, that know in what sort sin is to be shunned), ignorant errors in matters of no great weight: all which sins be punished after death, if men procured not pardon and remission for them in their lifetime: for when St. Paul said, that “Christ is the foundation:” and by and by added: “And if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: the work of every one, of what kind it is, the fire shall try. If any man's work abide which he built thereupon, he shall receive reward; if any man’s work burn, he shall suffer detriment, but himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.”Gregory then goes on to explain St. Paul’s meaning, drawing a distinction between what we would later call mortal and venial sins:
“For although these words may be understood of the fire of tribulation, which men suffer in this world: yet if any will interpret them of the fire of Purgatory, which shall be in the next life: then must he carefully consider, that the Apostle said not that he may be saved by fire, that buildeth upon this foundation iron, brass, or lead, that is, the greater sort of sins, and therefore more hard, and consequently not remissible in that place: but wood, hay, stubble, that is, little and very light sins, which the fire doth easily consume. Yet we have here further to consider, that none can be there purged, no, not for the least sins that be, unless in his lifetime he deserved by virtuous works to find such favor in that place.” [Dialogues, Book 4:39]
Purgatory is a holding cell after death that is not at all supported by Scripture.
After death comes the judgment for your deeds in this life. There is no such intermediate place after you die where you can somehow escape judgment.
But if you’ve received Christ, you’ve already been judged with him and have died with him, so there’s nothing left for those in Christ except for salvation and eternal life.
.................
+1
I ask you, is there anyone whom the Mary of your religion cannot save?... and why?
“Your own catechism says “expiation” ...”
Of course it does:
433 The name of the Savior God was invoked only once in the year by the high priest in atonement for the sins of Israel, after he had sprinkled the mercy seat in the Holy of Holies with the sacrificial blood. The mercy seat was the place of God’s presence. When St. Paul speaks of Jesus whom “God put forward as an expiation by his blood”, he means that in Christ’s humanity “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself.”
457 The Word became flesh for us in order to save us by reconciling us with God, who “loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins”: “the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world”, and “he was revealed to take away sins”:
Sick, our nature demanded to be healed; fallen, to be raised up; dead, to rise again. We had lost the possession of the good; it was necessary for it to be given back to us. Closed in the darkness, it was necessary to bring us the light; captives, we awaited a Savior; prisoners, help; slaves, a liberator. Are these things minor or insignificant? Did they not move God to descend to human nature and visit it, since humanity was in so miserable and unhappy a state?
604 By giving up his own Son for our sins, God manifests that his plan for us is one of benevolent love, prior to any merit on our part: “In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins.” God “shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.”
620 Our salvation flows from God’s initiative of love for us, because “he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins” (1 Jn 4:10). “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself” (2 Cor 5:19).
1475 In the communion of saints, “a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. Between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things.” In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.
1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.
2266 The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people’s rights and to the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people’s safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party.
And?
http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/primindu.htm
It's a shame Pope Gregory the Great didn't understand that our "virtuous works" are NOT what causes us to deserve salvation. According to the word of God, we can NEVER deserve, merit or earn eternal life - that is why we are saved by grace through faith and not ourselves LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST.
I know he knows that now.
“We have the words of Yeshua himself. That is all we need. Period.”
We have the blood and grace of Christ. That is all we need. Period.
If only Gregory could speak to us now...
Actually Catholics profess to believe that also, except that the word of God is only whatever she says it is and means, under the premise that one cannot even discover the contents of the word of God except by faith in her.
However, not only was a canon of authoritative wholly God-inspired writings (Scripture) established before the coming of Christ (and which provided the prophetic and doctrinal foundation for the church), but unlike men such as the apostles who could speak and write as wholly God-inspired, and also provide new public revelation thereby, popes and councils do not do so in claiming to tell us what the word of God is.
And God manifestly made writing His most-reliable means of authoritative preservation. (Exodus 17:14; 34:1,27; Deuteronomy 10:4; 17:18; 27:3,8; 31:24; Joshua 1:8; 2 Chronicles 34:15,18-19, 30-31; Psalm 19:7-11; 119; Psalm 102:18; Isaiah 30:8; Jeremiah 30:2; Matthew 4:5-7; 22:29; Luke 24:44,45; John 5:46,47; John 20:31; Acts 17:2,11; 18:28; Revelation 1:1; 20:12, 15;
And as is abundantly evidenced , as written, Scripture became the transcendent supreme standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims as the wholly Divinely inspired and assured, Word of God. Thus the veracity of oral preaching subject to testing by Scripture, and not vice versa.
And Scripture provides for wholly God-inspired writings being provided and ascertained as being so, and thus more of such conflative and complementary writings were added to the canon, essentially due to their unique enduring heavenly qualities and attestation, such as Ps. 119 describes in part.
Thus some of the questions for those who challenge the supremacy and sufficiency (in the formal and material sense combined) of Scripture in order to assert the teaching office of their church is the supreme standard for faith and morals are:
1. What is God's manifest most reliable permanent means of preserving what He told man as well as what man does: oral transmission or writing?
2. What became the established supreme authoritative source for testing Truth claims: oral transmission or "it is written/Scripture?"
3. Which came first: the written word of God and an authoritative body of it, or the NT church?
4. Did the establishment of a body of wholly inspired authoritative writings await the church and require an infallible magisterium?
5. Which transcendent sure source was so abundantly invoked by the Lord Jesus and NT church in substantiating her claims to the nation that was the historical instruments and stewards of express Divine revelation: oral transmission or writing?
6. Was the veracity of Scripture subject to testing by the oral words of men or vice versa?
7. Do Catholic popes and councils speak or write as wholly inspired of God in giving His word like as men such as apostles did, and also provide new public revelation thereby?
8. In the light of the above, do you deny that only Scripture is the supreme, wholly inspired-of-God substantive and authoritative word of God, and sure record of what the NT church believed?
9. Do you think sola scripture must mean that only the Bible is to be used in understanding what God says?
10. Do you think the sufficiency aspect of sola scripture must mean that the Bible formally provides everything needed for salvation and growth in grace, including reason, writing, ability to discern, teachers, synods, etc. or that this sufficiency refers to Scripture as regards sources of express Divine revelation, and which materially provides for such things as were listed above?
11. What wholly inspired oral source has spoken to man the public word of God outside Scripture since the last book was penned?
12. Where in Scripture is a magisterium of men promised ensured perpetual infallibility of office whenever it defines as a body a matter of faith or morals for the whole church?
13. Does being the historical instruments, discerners and stewards of express Divine revelation mean that such possess that magisterial infallibility?
14. What is the basis for your assurance that your church is the one true apostolic church? The weight of evidence for it or because the church who declared she it cannot err in such a matter?
“Purgatory is a holding cell after death that is not at all supported by Scripture.”
The prison of the patriarchs is. Thus, there can be others that are not mentioned. Also, Purgatory is supported by scripture. Most Protestants simply refuse to accept scripture as scripture.
“After death comes the judgment for your deeds in this life. There is no such intermediate place after you die where you can somehow escape judgment.”
Purgatory is not an “intermediate place” anymore than Bosom of Abraham or the Prison of the Patriarchs. Everyone in Purgatory has been judged. They will all go to Heaven.
“But if you’ve received Christ, you’ve already been judged with him and have died with him, so there’s nothing left for those in Christ except for salvation and eternal life.”
There is also obedience.
“Also, Purgatory is supported by scripture.” Then why don’t you post the scriptures and we will see if what you assert is correct.
And now we can see why and how Catholicism has perverted the gospel of grace - there's no money pouring in if you no longer have indulgences, funeral Masses, alms giving, etc. for the dead in Purgatory. How do you think St. Peter's Basilica got built?
Except that is not what that verse says. "Expiation" meant a covering for sins and the word was used only about sacrifices of the Jews before the Messiah. That word is not found in the New Testament. After He came, Jesus is the propitiation for our sins - He is the once-for-all atoning sacrifice that takes away the sins of the world.
I think those who choose to follow the authority of ancient “fathers” above others simply because they are nearer to the time of the Apostles must presume that someone in our time could not also have the same knowledge and wisdom as they do. This insight and wisdom comes from the SAME Holy Spirit who Jesus said would lead us into all truth. He didn’t promise that guidance ONLY to the early believers but to all those to whom Christ calls. We hear His voice the same way the early Christians did. We even have more tools and information to help us since we have a completed Bible and the benefit of wide spread literacy. Spiritual maturity and Biblical knowledge are not under the sole ownership of church “fathers”.
Meaning what RCs attempt to extrapolate out such texts as dealt with in post 49 and 50, which is akin to Mormons seeking to do the like for some of their teachings which as in Catholicism, actually come from another stream of purported Divine revelation.
But in both cases even though appeal to Scripture is made in condescension to evangelical types, the real basis for the veracity of Catholic teaching does not rest upon the weight of Scriptural substantiation, but upon the the novel and unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility.
Thus it is imagined that "Catholic doctrine, as authoritatively proposed by the Church, should be held as the supreme law; for, seeing that the same God is the author both of the Sacred Books and of the doctrine committed to the Church," ( Providentissimus Deus) even though popes and councils do not speak or write as wholly inspired of God as is the case with the inspired writers.
But therefore as the founder of "Catholic Answers" asserts in response to the lack of Scriptural proof for the Assumption (which leading Catholic scholars opposed being declared apostolic tradition due to lack of early testimony),
...the mere fact that the Church teaches the doctrine of the Assumption as definitely true is a guarantee that it is true," Karl Keating, ; Catholicism and Fundamentalism San Francisco: Ignatius, 1988, p. 275),
Likewise Manning,
The only Divine evidence to us of what was primitive is the witness and voice of the Church at this hour. (Dr. Henry Edward Cardinal Manning, The Temporal Mission of the Holy Ghost, p. 228)
And Newman,
..in all cases the immediate motive in the mind of a Catholic for his reception of them is, not that they are proved to him by Reason or by History, but because Revelation has declared them by means of that high ecclesiastical Magisterium which is their legitimate exponent.” — John Henry Newman, “A Letter Addressed to the Duke of Norfolk on Occasion of Mr. Gladstone's Recent Expostulation.” 8.
Which means that Catholic appeal to Scripture as the basis for belief - which presumes one can correctly discern what is means - has as its goal bring the subject to cast away that basis for belief and instead place his faith in Rome.
Moreover, since in Catholic theology "the believer cannot believe in the Bible nor find in it the object of his faith until he has previously made an act of faith in the intermediary authorities..." (Catholic Encyclopedia>Tradition and Living Magisterium) - meaning as Rome must tell them what Scripture consists of and means - then in order to avoid circular reasoning (proving the Church by Scripture and Scripture by the Church) it is argued that "when we appeal to the Scriptures for proof of the Church's infallible authority we appeal to them merely as reliable historical sources...." (Catholic Encyclopedia>Infallibility)
Which means that while the subject cannot discern Scripture as being from God yet he/she can discern the Catholic church therein! Of course, when they find that distinctive Catholic teachings are not manifest in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed then they are told they need to submit to Rome first to understand the Bible.
Of course, the problem with that is that is simply contrary to who the NT church began, in which a canon of authoritative wholly God-inspired writings (Scripture) was established as being so before the coming of Christ. And which provided the prophetic and doctrinal foundation for the church. And it was common souls who correctly discerned prophets as well as the Messiah and His band of likewise itinerant preachers (as far as the historical magisterium was concerned) who were rejected by those who sat in the seat of Moses. But who established their Truth claims upon Scriptural substantiation in word and in power.
Matt 7:24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
John 6:28Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
What's that again? What came after believe? What did JESUS list? Jesus added nothing after believe, and the first great council of the Ekklesia affirmed HIS teaching. Remember? What did the APOSTLES put on the list?... Study to show yourself approved a workman worthy ...
I believe that argument you are putting forth can describe your article, your insistence that only Greg is correct, etc.
There is only one Body of Christ, made of every believer who has entrusted himself to His sacrifice alone and apart from works.
I think Ol' Greg would say,
Adhere to Christ alone for salvation! Adhere to His word alone as authoritative! You get one shot and just one. And by the way, purgatory is bogus, and so is Rome." Holy water is just water.
It is never about the roman church and always about Christ alone. His glory. And quit calling me Gregory the Great! There is only One who is great. And get into the Word of God yourself! Quit outsourcing your mind. And quit praying to departed believers. They can't hear you. Go straight to God Himself! That includes idols too. If they didn't listen to Christ, then they will not listen to me either, sadly.
"I was totally wrong! I wish I could go back and write differently. I wish I could junk all the things I was falsely taught and taught myself. I led people astray to my everlasting embarrassment!
Ping to those who want to hear from the dead!
Who had said that.
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