Posted on 03/13/2019 6:40:19 AM PDT by Antoninus
In part one of this post, I looked at the vision of Perpetua—one of the earliest authentic Christian documents to describe directly a Purgatory-like state and to highlight the efficacy of prayer petitions for the dead.
Others writing during the patristic age also expounded upon this idea in more or less detail, among them St. Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Origen, St. Augustine of Hippo, and St. Caesarius of Arles. One of the most clear references to Purgatory appears in a late 4th century work by Saint Gregory of Nyssa, entitled: “On the Soul and the Resurrection”. St. Gregory writes:
“For [God], the one goal is this: the perfection of the universe through each man individually, the fulfillment of our nature. Some of us are purged of evil in this life, and some are cured of it through fire in the after-life, some have not had the experience of good and evil in life here….The different degrees of virtue or vice in our life will be revealed in our participating more quickly or more slowly in the blessedness we hope for. The extent of the healing with depend on the amount of evil present in each person. The healing of the soul will be purification from evil and this cannot be accomplished without suffering…”Building upon this notion about 200 years later, another Gregory—Pope Saint Gregory the Great—was the first to set forth the notion of Purgatory as Catholics now understand it. As part of his famous Dialogues, he wrote:
“…It is plain that in such state as a man departs out of this life, in the same he is presented in judgment before God. But yet we must believe that before the day of judgment there is a Purgatory fire for certain small sins: because our Savior says, “That he which speaketh blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, that it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come [Matthew 12:32].”Here we see Gregory offering a scriptural proof for Purgatory, out of the mouth of Jesus Himself. He elaborates on this point, citing Saint Paul's first epistle to the Corinthians, chapter 3:
“Out of which sentence we learn, that some sins are forgiven in this world, and some other may be pardoned in the next: for that which is denied concerning one sin, is consequently understood to be granted touching some other. But yet this, as I said, we have not to believe but only concerning little and very small sins, as, for example, daily idle talk, immoderate laughter, negligence in the care of our family (which kind of offenses scarce can they avoid, that know in what sort sin is to be shunned), ignorant errors in matters of no great weight: all which sins be punished after death, if men procured not pardon and remission for them in their lifetime: for when St. Paul said, that “Christ is the foundation:” and by and by added: “And if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: the work of every one, of what kind it is, the fire shall try. If any man's work abide which he built thereupon, he shall receive reward; if any man’s work burn, he shall suffer detriment, but himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.”Gregory then goes on to explain St. Paul’s meaning, drawing a distinction between what we would later call mortal and venial sins:
“For although these words may be understood of the fire of tribulation, which men suffer in this world: yet if any will interpret them of the fire of Purgatory, which shall be in the next life: then must he carefully consider, that the Apostle said not that he may be saved by fire, that buildeth upon this foundation iron, brass, or lead, that is, the greater sort of sins, and therefore more hard, and consequently not remissible in that place: but wood, hay, stubble, that is, little and very light sins, which the fire doth easily consume. Yet we have here further to consider, that none can be there purged, no, not for the least sins that be, unless in his lifetime he deserved by virtuous works to find such favor in that place.” [Dialogues, Book 4:39]
Scripture is the only wholly God-inspired substantive standard, and reveals that even how in one generation significant declension from the Truth can occur. Already by the time of Paul there was teaching that the resurrection had already occurred, and who foretold of more, and by the time of John other false doctrines had arisen.
Those who look to uninspired writings of men as determinitive of what the NT church believed are insulting the Holy Spirit and thus Christ and the Father who provided the Scriptures.
Right. Other things that God didn’t tell us about:
Well ... Oz, for one thing.
Infant baptism.
Praying for dead folks.
Sainthood awarded for performing “miracles”.
Mary hearing prayers.
Confessing to a mortal priest.
Pope.
“Purgatory doesn’t work because suffering for sin does not atone for them or remove them.”
Purgatory is about cleansing. Cleansing can mean suffering. But it is Christ’s grace that is at work.
“That was cherry picking a verse out of context.”
Your opinion.
“You do realize that it also means that there’s NEVER any way out.”
Nonsense. Christ’s grace is the way out and that’s what is at work in Purgatory.
“You can’t pay a debt when you are locked up in debtors prison and can’t work to earn money to pay it.”
Your analogy is flawed. A man can pay off a debt in debtor’s prison if he works in prison. Also, it is God grace working in Purgatory - NOT US.
Placemarker
What I personally find amusing is that there isn’t any response to the actual words of the Apostles that have been quoted.
So you’re admitting that we’re part of the Body of Christ too?
That’s progress.
You are correct, but more weight is placed on the words of a pope than on God’s Words.
You’re questioning their non-biblical narrative.
Of course I am.
Many Catholics around here have condemned me right to eternal death for being Christian and not Roman Catholic.
So it’s nice to have someone acknowledge being part of the Body of Christ.
What bitterness consumes you! I asked politely and Vlad posted politely. Does that bother you? ... Now, when I get time to do it, I intend to read every single entry he gave and ponder it. That is the least I can do in response to such polite discourse. You, OTH, not so much.
Thank you. I intend to read it all when I get time to do so in opne sitting. BBL
The Bible does not teach perfect holiness in the body or in a intermediate state. We don’t have to be perfect to go to heaven because Satan and his angels appear before God in heaven and they have no purity in works or nature to be allowed before God. If the trials of fire didn’t perfect you while you lived in your body what makes you think fire can burn away impurities afterward?
This is EXACTLY why I don't read your data-dump posts. Thanks for explaining it so clearly.
You mean thanks for affirming so clearly that you prefer uninspired writings of men as determinitive of what the NT church believed and thus insulting the Holy Spirit.
From here; we build on NOTIONS.
1 John 4 English Standard Version (ESV)
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. 4 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
No, not the insubstantial patristic polemics, just the wresting of scriptural quotations, such as making the the devil the fellowservant, and a the sin against him to a venial sin; and "be perfect" as perfect in character via RCP (RC Purgatory), and a desire for mercy at the Lord's coming into a prayer for one in RCP; and Abraham's bosom, a place of comfort, into RCP; and the unfaithful servant who is appointed him his portion with the unbelievers as being in RCP; and the heretical baptism for the dead for the dead as not cleansing from sin but referring to RCP; etc.!
I mean, the work but this so-called Scripture Catholic, which goes beyond what Rome officially teaches, is a amazing example of just what I referred to, a wanton wresting of Scripture to support a tradition of men following their programming, compelled by cultic faith and allegiance to a fallible unholy church
Thanks for invite still, I will try to remember to ping you went I am done, though post 49 and 50 already have exposed some of the sophistry.
“That he which speaketh blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, that it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come [Matthew 12:32].”
SURE he does!!
Genesis 3:1
Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
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