Posted on 03/13/2019 6:40:19 AM PDT by Antoninus
In part one of this post, I looked at the vision of Perpetua—one of the earliest authentic Christian documents to describe directly a Purgatory-like state and to highlight the efficacy of prayer petitions for the dead.
Others writing during the patristic age also expounded upon this idea in more or less detail, among them St. Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Origen, St. Augustine of Hippo, and St. Caesarius of Arles. One of the most clear references to Purgatory appears in a late 4th century work by Saint Gregory of Nyssa, entitled: “On the Soul and the Resurrection”. St. Gregory writes:
“For [God], the one goal is this: the perfection of the universe through each man individually, the fulfillment of our nature. Some of us are purged of evil in this life, and some are cured of it through fire in the after-life, some have not had the experience of good and evil in life here….The different degrees of virtue or vice in our life will be revealed in our participating more quickly or more slowly in the blessedness we hope for. The extent of the healing with depend on the amount of evil present in each person. The healing of the soul will be purification from evil and this cannot be accomplished without suffering…”Building upon this notion about 200 years later, another Gregory—Pope Saint Gregory the Great—was the first to set forth the notion of Purgatory as Catholics now understand it. As part of his famous Dialogues, he wrote:
“…It is plain that in such state as a man departs out of this life, in the same he is presented in judgment before God. But yet we must believe that before the day of judgment there is a Purgatory fire for certain small sins: because our Savior says, “That he which speaketh blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, that it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come [Matthew 12:32].”Here we see Gregory offering a scriptural proof for Purgatory, out of the mouth of Jesus Himself. He elaborates on this point, citing Saint Paul's first epistle to the Corinthians, chapter 3:
“Out of which sentence we learn, that some sins are forgiven in this world, and some other may be pardoned in the next: for that which is denied concerning one sin, is consequently understood to be granted touching some other. But yet this, as I said, we have not to believe but only concerning little and very small sins, as, for example, daily idle talk, immoderate laughter, negligence in the care of our family (which kind of offenses scarce can they avoid, that know in what sort sin is to be shunned), ignorant errors in matters of no great weight: all which sins be punished after death, if men procured not pardon and remission for them in their lifetime: for when St. Paul said, that “Christ is the foundation:” and by and by added: “And if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: the work of every one, of what kind it is, the fire shall try. If any man's work abide which he built thereupon, he shall receive reward; if any man’s work burn, he shall suffer detriment, but himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.”Gregory then goes on to explain St. Paul’s meaning, drawing a distinction between what we would later call mortal and venial sins:
“For although these words may be understood of the fire of tribulation, which men suffer in this world: yet if any will interpret them of the fire of Purgatory, which shall be in the next life: then must he carefully consider, that the Apostle said not that he may be saved by fire, that buildeth upon this foundation iron, brass, or lead, that is, the greater sort of sins, and therefore more hard, and consequently not remissible in that place: but wood, hay, stubble, that is, little and very light sins, which the fire doth easily consume. Yet we have here further to consider, that none can be there purged, no, not for the least sins that be, unless in his lifetime he deserved by virtuous works to find such favor in that place.” [Dialogues, Book 4:39]
All that does is illustrate that fire can purify, out of which RCs think they extrapolate support for RC Purgatory, which Is. 6 is not. The prophet realized a instantaneous work of grace in this life, correspondent to "He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire," (Luke 3:16) and as seen on the day of Pentecost, thus he was eager and empowered to preach the word.
Which chapter by the way, is a powerful testimony to the Deity of Christ, since John 12:39-44 tells us that the One whom Isaiah tells us He saw in His glory at this time was the Son of God.
IF a Christian believes what Paul wrote, then there is no 'stretch' which can change his teaching:
Romans 8:1 ... and the context is THE assurance of God's Promise, not the success or failure of men. IF we are in Christ Jesus, there is no condemnation to warrant a 'purgatory', else Jesus's Precious Blood was not sufficient. ... Catholics, don't go there!
Nice work daniel. Thanks. I clipped it to Evernote.
How can there be suffering when the person in Purgatory has no body? It is the blood of Jesus Christ that cleanses us from ALL sin. For those in Christ who die it is "absent from the body, present with the Lord" - no stopover place.
Book Mark for later
I certainly hope you don’t have a problem with inviting others to comment on a topic they may be interested in! If you do, you may want avoid posting OPEN threads.
“How can there be suffering when the person in Purgatory has no body?”
The same way souls in Heaven now are experiencing bliss. The same way souls in Hell right now are experiencing torment. Did that thought not even occur to you?
“It is the blood of Jesus Christ that cleanses us from ALL sin.”
And for some that continues in Purgatory.
“For those in Christ who die it is “absent from the body, present with the Lord” - no stopover place.””
And those in Purgatory are indeed being cleansed to be with the Lord as they need to be. The Lord has not forgotten them.
“IF we are in Christ Jesus, there is no condemnation to warrant a ‘purgatory’, else Jesus’s Precious Blood was not sufficient. ... Catholics, don’t go there!”
Your misunderstanding of Purgatory does not negate the existence of Purgatory.
I’ll read yours if you’ll read mine.
Its not just Paul. RC Purgatory is not taught, including where it would expected to be.
There are a few improvements I hope to make to the hours-long response though, by the grace of God. But soon I need sleep.
Thanks be to God for what is good. Hope its not beyond the character limit!
“You cited a section from your Catechism that MISQUOTES the New Testament - using the English word “expiate/expiation” instead of “propitiate/propitiation”.”
Nope. There is no misquote. The actual translation in the RSV and the RSVCE says “expiation” rather than “propitiation”. The two words are often used interchangeably and inextricably interlinked. Hence, Vine’s New Testament Word Pictures links the two.
Try harder. Do some actual research and you’ll be less likely to make such obvious mistakes such as claiming a correct quote of a translation you don’t like is actually a misquote.
Very good job! Of course we already know some will whine that it is TOO much to read and ignore it all. Then at some later date when the topic pops up again - and we know it will - they will trot out the same specious and disproven arguments as if no one has ever been able to dispute them. Pretty sad!
For their sake I hope they will be very pleasantly surprised when they take their last breath and immediately rest in the arms of Jesus. They will finally realize that the blood of Jesus Christ truly did cleanse them from all sin and their faith was what God required to admit them into the heavenly realm where He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the former things have passed away.” .
“All that does is illustrate that fire can purify, out of which RCs think they extrapolate support for RC Purgatory, which Is. 6 is not.”
The anti-Catholic point made was that fire cannot be used to purify. Isaiah 6 shows that God used fire to purify. Case closed.
“The prophet realized a instantaneous work of grace in this life,”
Yes, WITH FIRE.
“... correspondent to “He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire,” (Luke 3:16) and as seen on the day of Pentecost, thus he was eager and empowered to preach the word.”
At worst you’re just proving my case.
And glad to do so, if the only argument was that God can use fire to purify, which my large response affirms.
But it was in response to a prolix polemic!
For their sake I hope they will be very pleasantly surprised when they take their last breath and immediately rest in the arms of Jesus.
And for which I pray for them collectively. 2 Tim. 2:25
Nope. There is no misquote. The actual translation in the RSV and the RSVCE says “expiation” rather than “propitiation”.
***
What’s the Greek say?
However, Scripture teaches all the believers who were living if Christ returned in their generation would go to then be forever with the Lord, , or at death, and He is seated in Heaven.
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:6-8)
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)
After which comes the judgment of believers of 1 Co., 3.
Actually its called a "ping list" (few of whom respond though), and RCs have them also. In contrast, Caucus threads typically get less than a about a dozen at most replies from different FReepers.
But now its time for me to sleep.
We aren't talking about eternal states of "bliss" or "torment" but a conscious SUFFERING over a set time period inflicted upon those disembodied souls with the intent to cleanse them completely. The abuse of Indulgences was made possible by convincing people their deceased loved ones were physically suffering for their sins and only by their offerings could they be released from that torment. Purgatory WAS taught as a place of burning pain where real suffering was going on.
For example:
Various manifestations of souls from Purgatory to saints and mystics, however, prove beyond reasonable doubt that the physical nature of the suffering in Purgatory is real and it is much more intense than anything one can imagine in this world. (https://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/e047-Purgatory.htm)
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