"I beseech you to pray unto our Lord for me" ~ Ancient Roots of the Doctrine of Purgatory

Gloria Romanorum ^ | 9/2/17 | Florentius

[af_vet_1981]

i think "Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing" (Matthew 5:26) is saying he never will come out,

And yet, it is not what the Messiah said; He was speaking to Israel (all Israel are brethren) and that one of Israel who has injured a brother in some way must reconcile himself with his brother; agree with the opponent who has a legal claim against one before facing the Judge; otherwise one does not get out of prison until one has paid the last κοδράντης (kodrantés, i.e., the smallest Roman copper coin).

The Gospel of Luke has the same teaching, with slightly different aspects and words.

Coincidentally, just prior to that prison/release reference, Luke also has this teaching applying to the "little flock" (servants) of the LORD (including all the Apostles): There are gradations in punishment, with grave sins against other servants being mortal, while others more venial, as it were. If one holds the punishment of members of "the little flock" with "few stripes" or "many stripes" are equal in respect to eternal damnation, one thereby gives up the Once Save, Always Saved doctrine as well. These were all servants of the LORD and members of the "little flock" that was being saved and commanded to watch and be ready.

• Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
• Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
• For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
• Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
• And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
• Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
• And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
• And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
• Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
• Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
• And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
• Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
• Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
• But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
• The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
• And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
• But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Luke, Catholic chapter twelve, Protestant verses thirty two to forty eight,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

[vladimir998]

“How many times did Stephen die??”

St. Stephen was a martyr. Martyrs do not need Purgatory. Your question, therefore, is in itself pointless for this thread.

Why don’t you try again? I’m sure you can do better if you try.

[vladimir998]

“Is the presence of the Holy Spirit in the human spirit a phenomenon which comes and goes?”

When you get back to talking about Purgatory, let me know.

[vladimir998]

“Do you understand The Bema Seat of Christ?”

When you get back to talking about Purgatory, let me know?

“Is there some sin that the blood of Christ DID NOT WIPE AWAY?”

Is there a sin Christ said would not be forgiven? See Mark 3:28-29, Matthew 12:31-32, and Luke 12:10. Does anything exist which can stop God from cleansing those who need it even after their death? Nope.

“Is you concept of time the root of the problem ...”

No, but yours might be.

“GOD knows/has access to your entire lifetime before it even begins. When a person is born again, saved, and lives the rest of their lifetime, the moment of ‘born from above’ has the blood of Christ applied to their human soul/spirit, without temporal restriction of the sin nature.”

There is no such thing as once saved, always saved. And ever if there were, that in itself would not negate the existence or need for Purgatory. You literally keep attacking the wrong thing as if it were about Purgatory when it is not. Christ’s blood works to cleanse in Purgatory TOO. Purgatory is not outside of Christ’s power. It IS Christ’s power.

“The blood of Christ cleanses the sin of an entire lifetime, and therein is the Great Grace of God in Christ realized.”

In reality all of our sins are forgiven, but the application of forgiveness can only come with contrition and repentance. Thus, the application can only come after the sin has been committed, repented of and confessed. 1 John 1:8–10

“Jesus Christ is due ALL the praise and glory; ONLY the blood of Jesus cleanses.”

And His blood works in Purgatory.

[af_vet_1981]

There is only one Rock and that is Christ.

There are many stones and rocks, yet only one cornerstone, one Rock of Israel.

• Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,
• The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.
• The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.
• And he shall be as the light of the morning, when the sun riseth, even a morning without clouds; as the tender grass springing out of the earth by clear shining after rain.
• Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow.

Second Samuel, Catholic chapter twenty three, Protestant verses one to five,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

[daniel1212]

“Daniel1212 has bent over backward to respectfully explain why he (and many of us) doesn’t accept the idea of Purgatory and he has invested many hours in it.”

I don’t think he bent backward in the slightest. I also don’t think he invested “many hours” either.

Actually I was sitting down but it was literally numerous hours, much due to my stiff arthritic fingers.

“Were his motives really based on some kind of bigotry or malice,”

I believe so, yes.

Terms used so broadly and selectively with bias that it has been said and reaffirmed that in contrast to Protestants, there has never been a bit of anti-protestant bigotry on FR, and who never denigrate Protestant beliefs. But of-course, in the view of the accuser none of which qualifies as bigotry.

In any case, my motive that gets me into this is to defend Scriptural Truth against the wresting of it, and the honor of God, and which is the same that moved me to spend weeks refuting prohomosexual polemics , as well as certain cults, by the grace of God, but also as said, Catholicism get the focus mainly due to the incessant promotion and defend of it, along with attacks on evangelical faith.

So this isn’t snark? “Finally a plethora of purported proof texts for Purgatory by the “Scripture Catholic” polemicist, illustrating some of the depths of egregious Catholic extrapolation.”

Indeed, as warranted sarcasm. As was Elijah sarcastically mocking the prophets of Baal, though I am not worthy to be compared to Elijah himself.

Yes. I just see disagreeable as appropriate for dealing with disagreeable people.

Indeed, though depending on what disagreeable means.

This thread is still going?

[boatbums]

I don’t think he bent backward in the slightest. I also don’t think he invested “many hours” either.

Then you don't "think" correctly! It IS Daniel1212's work unlike many RCs here. You also cannot know what motivates another's actions - you cannot see someone's heart. That you cannot see earnest and careful research and documented findings only makes me think you never will as long as it goes against your own biases.

[MHGinTN]

Now, is the Holy Spirit in someone when they go to this purgatory you profess?

[vladimir998]

“You also cannot know what motivates another’s actions - you cannot see someone’s heart.”

No, but you can judge a heart by the actions of the person.

“That you cannot see earnest and careful research and documented findings only makes me think you never will as long as it goes against your own biases.”

No, it’s just that the “research” is not “earnest” or “careful” according to actions. You’re calling it such because it goes with your biases.

[vladimir998]

“Now, is the Holy Spirit in someone when they go to this purgatory you profess?”

Is the Holy Spirit in someone when he sins? Is the Holy Spirit in someone when he suffers?

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Placemarker

[Elsie]

So then, in your book, and deemed by you, without any authority, the scriptures are in error. Gotcha.It appears someone paid for you to get a passing grade in Logic 101

[Elsie]

Did your Bible and the interpretation of it that you believe exist before 100AD?

Why did Rome FAIL to put in the 'bible' so MANY important doctrines back then?

Why does 'Mary' have to show up from time to time to straighten out what was NOT included?

Lucy; 'tis YOU that needs to do the splainin'!!

[Elsie]

Does your Bible not rely on an Old Testament?

Sure it does!

Put together LONG before any 'catholics' appeared on the scene.

Did you read #261??

[Elsie]

I wish all you "protestants" would get together and agree on the right interpretation of scripture.

Well; when the 'Catholic' church; with all of it's power and correctness can't seem to do it; why pick on us poor heretics; who are bound for hell by your teachings anyway?

[Elsie]

PING

ping me when all agree on something besides that you all hate catholics.

I'm sorry your victimhood has blinded you to the fact that we LOVE Catholics!

It's Rome's EXTRA crap it has amassed for itself that we hate.

All the mentions of FALSE TEACHERS in the NT were recorded LONG before any Prots ever appeared on the scene.

The seven churches that the angel told John to write to in Revelation were ALL 'Catholic'; RIGHT??

[Elsie]

When did Jesus sit down and write the Bible? I can’t find that in scripture.

Look harder...

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John 6:63-70 King James Version (KJV)

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not.

[Elsie]

All I know is what is recorded:

 
Matthew 27:52-53
The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,  They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

 

John 5:28-29 
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

[Mom MD]

Not a spark we are Indwelt by the Holy Spirit

[Elsie]

1) “if you give enough money to the church, we can get you relatives out of purgatory or at least sooner...........”

Well; it MIGHT be right; for only $11.95 you can ASSURE that YOU don't have to worry about it; for Mary has PROMISED!!!!!

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