Posted on 03/13/2019 6:40:19 AM PDT by Antoninus
In part one of this post, I looked at the vision of Perpetua—one of the earliest authentic Christian documents to describe directly a Purgatory-like state and to highlight the efficacy of prayer petitions for the dead.
Others writing during the patristic age also expounded upon this idea in more or less detail, among them St. Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Origen, St. Augustine of Hippo, and St. Caesarius of Arles. One of the most clear references to Purgatory appears in a late 4th century work by Saint Gregory of Nyssa, entitled: “On the Soul and the Resurrection”. St. Gregory writes:
“For [God], the one goal is this: the perfection of the universe through each man individually, the fulfillment of our nature. Some of us are purged of evil in this life, and some are cured of it through fire in the after-life, some have not had the experience of good and evil in life here….The different degrees of virtue or vice in our life will be revealed in our participating more quickly or more slowly in the blessedness we hope for. The extent of the healing with depend on the amount of evil present in each person. The healing of the soul will be purification from evil and this cannot be accomplished without suffering…”Building upon this notion about 200 years later, another Gregory—Pope Saint Gregory the Great—was the first to set forth the notion of Purgatory as Catholics now understand it. As part of his famous Dialogues, he wrote:
“…It is plain that in such state as a man departs out of this life, in the same he is presented in judgment before God. But yet we must believe that before the day of judgment there is a Purgatory fire for certain small sins: because our Savior says, “That he which speaketh blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, that it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come [Matthew 12:32].”Here we see Gregory offering a scriptural proof for Purgatory, out of the mouth of Jesus Himself. He elaborates on this point, citing Saint Paul's first epistle to the Corinthians, chapter 3:
“Out of which sentence we learn, that some sins are forgiven in this world, and some other may be pardoned in the next: for that which is denied concerning one sin, is consequently understood to be granted touching some other. But yet this, as I said, we have not to believe but only concerning little and very small sins, as, for example, daily idle talk, immoderate laughter, negligence in the care of our family (which kind of offenses scarce can they avoid, that know in what sort sin is to be shunned), ignorant errors in matters of no great weight: all which sins be punished after death, if men procured not pardon and remission for them in their lifetime: for when St. Paul said, that “Christ is the foundation:” and by and by added: “And if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: the work of every one, of what kind it is, the fire shall try. If any man's work abide which he built thereupon, he shall receive reward; if any man’s work burn, he shall suffer detriment, but himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.”Gregory then goes on to explain St. Paul’s meaning, drawing a distinction between what we would later call mortal and venial sins:
“For although these words may be understood of the fire of tribulation, which men suffer in this world: yet if any will interpret them of the fire of Purgatory, which shall be in the next life: then must he carefully consider, that the Apostle said not that he may be saved by fire, that buildeth upon this foundation iron, brass, or lead, that is, the greater sort of sins, and therefore more hard, and consequently not remissible in that place: but wood, hay, stubble, that is, little and very light sins, which the fire doth easily consume. Yet we have here further to consider, that none can be there purged, no, not for the least sins that be, unless in his lifetime he deserved by virtuous works to find such favor in that place.” [Dialogues, Book 4:39]
I mean you're all so confident your version is correct that our should be EASY to agree.
ping me when all agree on something besides that you all hate catholics.
When did Jesus sit down and write the Bible? I can’t find that in scripture.
Answers
Yes
Category mistake
No
“You realize the only reason we have scriptures is because of tradition and CATHOLIC Church councils, right? ”
The only reason that we have the Scriptures, is because God purposed in eternity to inspire, transmit, and preserve his word.
Yet the Roman Rooster crows and believes his crowing makes the sun rise.
Foolish rooster.
Well, your fable of purgatory belief indicates you do not understand Salvation during the Age of the Ekklesia. Have nice day.
You are not a body that has a soul/spirit, you are a soul/spirit that happens to now have a body. Perhaps you would like to explain what happens when someone is born again, born from above and remains alive in the body for years to follow? Vladimir 998 is somewhat confused due to heavy Cathiolic Church teaching.
SO does a believer in Christ have the spark of the Holy Spirit in their human spirit while on earth?
“…It is plain that in such state as a man departs out of this life, in the same he is presented in judgment before God. But yet we must believe that before the day of judgment there is a Purgatory fire for certain small sins.
It is plain, yet we must believe something different.
The application of the “doctrine” of purgatory is the most repulsive and should be a warning.
1) “if you give enough money to the church, we can get you relatives out of purgatory or at least sooner...........”
2) “Don’t work about that little sin, we can work that out in purgatory.”
3) “We can make an arrangement where that extra holiness of a saint can be used to help your dead relative in purgatory.”
“Well, your fable of purgatory belief indicates you do not understand Salvation during the Age of the Ekklesia. Have nice day.”
Here are your errors:
It is not MY fable - nor any fable at all.
Also, your opinion is subjective, of course, but it is objective fact that you are not getting the doctrine of Purgatory right yet are attacking it. You are objectively wrong. I am not. Have a nice day.
“The body is dead and in many cases dissolved into the molecular elements of which it was composed. The soul and spirit remained alive and with the spark of the Holy Spirit in the born again/born from above spirit are in Heaven with Jesus.”
Some souls need cleansing before they can enter Heaven.
“Why did you exclude the verse which says GOD will bring WITH JESUS the dead in Christ.”
Why didn’t you post the whole Bible? Also, you realize that some are in Heaven NOW so not all the dead in Christ will need to be brought into Heaven at the time of the end. They are already there. All they will need is to have a glorified body restored to them.
“You are not a body that has a soul/spirit, you are a soul/spirit that happens to now have a body.”
Not “happens”. We were meant for a body. That’s why we will have one again.
“Perhaps you would like to explain what happens when someone is born again, born from above and remains alive in the body for years to follow?”
We’re talking about those who definitely are redeemed and saved so why would we need to?
“Vladimir 998 is somewhat confused due to heavy Cathiolic Church teaching.”
No, I’m not confused in the least. And I at least know how to spell Catholic.
“Daniel1212 has bent over backward to respectfully explain why he (and many of us) doesn’t accept the idea of Purgatory and he has invested many hours in it.”
I don’t think he bent backward in the slightest. I also don’t think he invested “many hours” either.
“Were his motives really based on some kind of bigotry or malice,”
I believe so, yes.
“why would he take so much of his time to research, cross reference and format?”
You’re showing a great deal of naivete if you think “time” or “research” or “cross referencing” or “formatting” preclude bigotry.
“Like some RCs here, he could just toss out snark and ridicule, but he hasn’t.”
So this isn’t snark? “Finally a plethora of purported proof texts for Purgatory by the “Scripture Catholic” polemicist, illustrating some of the depths of egregious Catholic extrapolation.”
“Can’t you disagree without being disagreeable?”
Yes. I just see disagreeable as appropriate for dealing with disagreeable people.
vladimir998: We’re talking about those who definitely are redeemed and saved so why would we need to?
There is at least one aspect which ALL SAVED humans share: 1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
Is the presence of the Holy Spirit in the human spirit a phenomenon which comes and goes?
Where did the words of the apostles come from?
***
Jesus himself, which is why the teaching of the Apostles and not the teaching of Rome is the foundation of our faith.
Is funny, ain’t it?
If the Roman Catholics had the Word of God, they could just point to it.
Instead they spill so much virtual ink and bile trying to tell us that we should believe the opposite of what the Apostles actually wrote without reference to the Word.
“If the Roman Catholics had the Word of God, they could just point to it.”
Half of what they claim isn’t from scripture, but from pagan religions.
Once they moved to syncretic paganism, they had to attempt to “biblicize” each false belief, by finding out of context pieces to string together that sound similar to the cherished pagan belief.
In the past millennia, Rome has yet to release the official and authoritative commentary of every verse in the Bible.
They cannot.
They never will.
How many times did Stephen die??
“Building one’s faith on a rock of antiCatholicism profits nothing. ”
I agree.
There is only one Rock and that is Christ.
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