Posted on 03/13/2019 6:40:19 AM PDT by Antoninus
In part one of this post, I looked at the vision of Perpetua—one of the earliest authentic Christian documents to describe directly a Purgatory-like state and to highlight the efficacy of prayer petitions for the dead.
Others writing during the patristic age also expounded upon this idea in more or less detail, among them St. Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Origen, St. Augustine of Hippo, and St. Caesarius of Arles. One of the most clear references to Purgatory appears in a late 4th century work by Saint Gregory of Nyssa, entitled: “On the Soul and the Resurrection”. St. Gregory writes:
“For [God], the one goal is this: the perfection of the universe through each man individually, the fulfillment of our nature. Some of us are purged of evil in this life, and some are cured of it through fire in the after-life, some have not had the experience of good and evil in life here….The different degrees of virtue or vice in our life will be revealed in our participating more quickly or more slowly in the blessedness we hope for. The extent of the healing with depend on the amount of evil present in each person. The healing of the soul will be purification from evil and this cannot be accomplished without suffering…”Building upon this notion about 200 years later, another Gregory—Pope Saint Gregory the Great—was the first to set forth the notion of Purgatory as Catholics now understand it. As part of his famous Dialogues, he wrote:
“…It is plain that in such state as a man departs out of this life, in the same he is presented in judgment before God. But yet we must believe that before the day of judgment there is a Purgatory fire for certain small sins: because our Savior says, “That he which speaketh blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, that it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come [Matthew 12:32].”Here we see Gregory offering a scriptural proof for Purgatory, out of the mouth of Jesus Himself. He elaborates on this point, citing Saint Paul's first epistle to the Corinthians, chapter 3:
“Out of which sentence we learn, that some sins are forgiven in this world, and some other may be pardoned in the next: for that which is denied concerning one sin, is consequently understood to be granted touching some other. But yet this, as I said, we have not to believe but only concerning little and very small sins, as, for example, daily idle talk, immoderate laughter, negligence in the care of our family (which kind of offenses scarce can they avoid, that know in what sort sin is to be shunned), ignorant errors in matters of no great weight: all which sins be punished after death, if men procured not pardon and remission for them in their lifetime: for when St. Paul said, that “Christ is the foundation:” and by and by added: “And if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: the work of every one, of what kind it is, the fire shall try. If any man's work abide which he built thereupon, he shall receive reward; if any man’s work burn, he shall suffer detriment, but himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.”Gregory then goes on to explain St. Paul’s meaning, drawing a distinction between what we would later call mortal and venial sins:
“For although these words may be understood of the fire of tribulation, which men suffer in this world: yet if any will interpret them of the fire of Purgatory, which shall be in the next life: then must he carefully consider, that the Apostle said not that he may be saved by fire, that buildeth upon this foundation iron, brass, or lead, that is, the greater sort of sins, and therefore more hard, and consequently not remissible in that place: but wood, hay, stubble, that is, little and very light sins, which the fire doth easily consume. Yet we have here further to consider, that none can be there purged, no, not for the least sins that be, unless in his lifetime he deserved by virtuous works to find such favor in that place.” [Dialogues, Book 4:39]
In 1 Thess 4:13-17 where is JESUS coming from? And GOD is bringing WITH HIM those who have died in Christ, where are they being brought from since they are coming WITH JESUS?
You can’t tell the difference tween Rome’s Mary and Christ’s mother??
Sad
Where is He bringing them to??
Who are the “dead in Christ that are coming UP out of a tomb??
HE is bringing the SPIRITS of those in Christ with JESUS from Heaven to the air above the Earth (not to ground). These SPIRITS are given new bodies, so they are bodily being raised first. Then, we who are alive and remain at the coming of the Lord will join these raised, in the clouds, to meet the Lord IN THE AIR.
“You assume I misunderstand the Catholic notion of purgatory.”
Your own words indicated you misunderstand it. I assumed nothing.
“Does The Holy Spirit go to purgatory in your catholiciism steeped reasoning??”
And that in itself indicates you don’t understand the doctrine of Purgatory.
I find it HARD to get the above from what is actually written.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 King James Version (KJV)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Can we not read that Christ DESCENDS and the dead RISE??
There are no SPIRITS to be found here DESCENDING with Jesus.
When do those in verse 17 get the new bodies??
I feel that many of us Prots are no better than Catholics in some matters.
Many are born into a Christian family and learn the 'bible' from a certain denominational viewpoint. Learning the 'truth' in countless Sunday School lessons and numerous sermons; thus being unable to actually READ the Scriptures for ourselves and discern what is inscribed on those pages we claim are so dear.
THIS is why I post LOTS of Scripture when trying to get a teaching across; hoping it can speak for itself, and thereby not having to 'explain' what the words 'really' mean.
THIS is why I am such a stickler for words, for phrases, for sentences and for entire paragraphs.
Others in these threads are delving even deeper at times; wanting us all to try to understand what the GREEK says, or Hebrew, or ancient customs...
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
(Sorry Catholics; but TRADITION is NOT mentioned in verse 16.)
No; what it 'indicates' (to me) is that he's wanting to know YOUR version of what you think Rome teaches about 'purgatory'.
You realize the only reason we have scriptures is because of tradition and CATHOLIC Church councils, right? So then, in your book, and deemed by you, without any authority, the scriptures are in error. Gotcha.
The Vatican is a country. WHOM, specifically, are you saying “claims that the apostles meant the exact opposite of what they wrote”? Secondly, how do you know your interpretation is any better?
Why are you relying on Goff as the authority? What makes him so?
Where did the words of the apostles come from?
Did your Bible and the interpretation of it that you believe exist before 100AD?
Funny that. Does your Bible not rely on an Old Testament?
So 400 years later someone twists the texts to come up with the doctrine of purgatory? No thanks. Anyway this pope missed the boat. There is no mention of praying to Mary to get one out of the nonexistent purgatory... so he can’t be Roman Catholic anyway.....
By whose authority do you interpret this biblical passage to mean it as you write? Why does your interpretation trump others?
So you are divinely inspired?? Wow.
Haha. Crass propaganda from a guy acting like a walking Jack chick tract. That’s rich!!
Heretics go to hell, not purgatory.
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