"I beseech you to pray unto our Lord for me" ~ Ancient Roots of the Doctrine of Purgatory

Gloria Romanorum ^ | 9/2/17 | Florentius

[Antoninus]

In part one of this post, I looked at the vision of Perpetua—one of the earliest authentic Christian documents to describe directly a Purgatory-like state and to highlight the efficacy of prayer petitions for the dead.

Others writing during the patristic age also expounded upon this idea in more or less detail, among them St. Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Origen, St. Augustine of Hippo, and St. Caesarius of Arles. One of the most clear references to Purgatory appears in a late 4th century work by Saint Gregory of Nyssa, entitled: “On the Soul and the Resurrection”. St. Gregory writes:

“For [God], the one goal is this: the perfection of the universe through each man individually, the fulfillment of our nature. Some of us are purged of evil in this life, and some are cured of it through fire in the after-life, some have not had the experience of good and evil in life here….The different degrees of virtue or vice in our life will be revealed in our participating more quickly or more slowly in the blessedness we hope for. The extent of the healing with depend on the amount of evil present in each person. The healing of the soul will be purification from evil and this cannot be accomplished without suffering…”

Building upon this notion about 200 years later, another Gregory—Pope Saint Gregory the Great—was the first to set forth the notion of Purgatory as Catholics now understand it. As part of his famous Dialogues, he wrote:

“…It is plain that in such state as a man departs out of this life, in the same he is presented in judgment before God. But yet we must believe that before the day of judgment there is a Purgatory fire for certain small sins: because our Savior says, “That he which speaketh blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, that it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come [Matthew 12:32].”

Here we see Gregory offering a scriptural proof for Purgatory, out of the mouth of Jesus Himself. He elaborates on this point, citing Saint Paul's first epistle to the Corinthians, chapter 3:

“Out of which sentence we learn, that some sins are forgiven in this world, and some other may be pardoned in the next: for that which is denied concerning one sin, is consequently understood to be granted touching some other. But yet this, as I said, we have not to believe but only concerning little and very small sins, as, for example, daily idle talk, immoderate laughter, negligence in the care of our family (which kind of offenses scarce can they avoid, that know in what sort sin is to be shunned), ignorant errors in matters of no great weight: all which sins be punished after death, if men procured not pardon and remission for them in their lifetime: for when St. Paul said, that “Christ is the foundation:” and by and by added: “And if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: the work of every one, of what kind it is, the fire shall try. If any man's work abide which he built thereupon, he shall receive reward; if any man’s work burn, he shall suffer detriment, but himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.”

Gregory then goes on to explain St. Paul’s meaning, drawing a distinction between what we would later call mortal and venial sins:

“For although these words may be understood of the fire of tribulation, which men suffer in this world: yet if any will interpret them of the fire of Purgatory, which shall be in the next life: then must he carefully consider, that the Apostle said not that he may be saved by fire, that buildeth upon this foundation iron, brass, or lead, that is, the greater sort of sins, and therefore more hard, and consequently not remissible in that place: but wood, hay, stubble, that is, little and very light sins, which the fire doth easily consume. Yet we have here further to consider, that none can be there purged, no, not for the least sins that be, unless in his lifetime he deserved by virtuous works to find such favor in that place.” [Dialogues, Book 4:39]

Click here to read the rest.

[Elsie]

 See what happens when ya fail to proofread!!

 

 

 

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The way it's written:

 

Galatians 4:4-5

But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, ⁵ to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.

 

 

 

The way Rome teaches it:

 

Galatians 4:4-5

But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a....

 

Co-Redemptrix, 
Ark of the Covenant,

Beloved daughter of the Father,
Favoured Daughter of the Father,

Cause of Our Joy,

Cause of our Salvation ,
Comfort of the Afflicted,
Destroyer of Heresy,
Ever-virgin ,
Gate of Heaven,
God-bearer,

Great Mother,
Health of the Sick,

Heavenly Chariot,
Help of Christians,
Holy Mary,
Holy Mother of God,
Holy Virgin of Virgins,
House of Gold,
Joy of the Just,
Majesty,
Mirror of Justice,
Morning Star,
Most Holy,
Mother Admirable,
Mother Inviolate,
Mother Most Amiable,
Mother Most Chaste,
Mother Most Pure,
Mother of Christ,
Mother of Divine Grace,
Mother of God,
Mother of Good Counsel,
Mother of Mercy,
Mother of Orphans,
Mother of Our Creator,
Mother of Our Redeemer,
Mother of Sorrows,
Mother of the Church,
Mother of the Poor,
Mother of the Word,

Mother of the Word Incarnate,
Mother Thrice Admirable,
Mother Undefiled,
Mystical Rose,
Nova Eva (the New Eve),
Our Lady of Compassion,
Our Lady of Confidence,
Our Lady of Victory,
Our Lady, Star of the Sea,
Our Mother of Perpetual Help,
Queen Assumed Into Heaven,
Queen Conceived Without Original Sin,
Queen of All Saints,
Queen of Angels,
Queen of Apostles,
Queen of Confessors,
Queen of Families,
Queen of Heaven,
Queen of Martyrs,
Queen of Patriarchs,
Queen of Peace,
Queen of Prophets,
Queen of the Most Holy Rosary,
Queen of Virgins,
Ravisher of Hearts,
Refuge of Sinners,

Resplendant car,
Seat of Wisdom,
She Who Shows the Way,
Singular Vessel of Devotion,
Spiritual Vessel,

Spouse of the Holy Spirit,

Sovereign Mistress of the Angels, 
Tabernacle of the Lord,

Temple of the Holy Spirit,
Temple of the Most Holy Trinity,
Throne of Wisdom,
Tower of David,
Tower of Ivory,
Treasure House of God's Graces,
Untier of Knots,
Vessel of Honor,
Virgin God-bearer,
Virgin Most Faithful,
Virgin Most Merciful,
Virgin Most Powerful,
Virgin Most Prudent,
Virgin Most Renowned,
Virgin Most Venerable

Virgin of virgins,                           born under the law, ⁵ to HELP redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship; sooner or later; and not spend TOO much time in Purgatory.

 

 

 

[ebb tide]

I see you’re one of them, “exteemed in his own generation”, also.

[daniel1212]

If fire “always” purifies, why aren’t Romans on this thread igniting themselves now. Lack of desire of purity?? Jump into the flames now. But of course fire does not always purify in Scripture...

Correct: of course fire does not always purify in Scripture..., which is why what I carefully said was "fire can be used to purify," while reproving use that principle to extrapolate proof of RCP, as is often done.

And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God. (Zechariah 13:8-9)

But which is not talking about after death, but in all the land, in the time of the Lord when "it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." (Zechariah 12:9-10)

And for what is worth, even Catholicism affirms the future latter-day recognition by "all Israel" (the remnant that is left) even the full inclusion of the Jews in the Messiah's salvation after of the full number of the Gentiles have entered into the kingdom.

[MHGinTN]

Perhaps one of such self-appointed moderator of these threads would answer my question then: Does the Holy Spirit go to purgatory when a person professing Jesus as Lord and Savior dies and supposedly drops into purgatory suffering?

[daniel1212]

1 Peter 4:4 Douay-Rheims Bible Wherein they think it strange, that you run not with them into the same confusion of riotousness, speaking evil of you.

Maybe the OP saw your post before posting this thread: THE ROMAN CATHOLICS OF BRAZIL MARK THE BEGINNING OF LENT WITH THEIR ANNUAL 5-DAY ‘CARNIVAL’

The question is, are such Catholics manifestly considered members in life and in death by Rome, and thus given ecclesiastical funerals , even as Teddy K. and the like were, while according to a RC theologian, "Shared Communion With Protestants Would be Blasphemy."

[sparklite2]

That’s what they believed. I don’t get the ‘so what.’

[boatbums]

And I appreciate your passion for contending for the truth.

What I meant, of course, is that disagreeing with certain "isms" (e.g., Catholicism; Protestantism) is NOT being anti-Catholic or anti-Protestant as that would be speaking of hatred towards the person(s).

This is based upon the Religion Moderator's rules:

It is never within the bounds on the Religion Forum for a Freeper to express his hatred of people who hold a particular belief when any Freeper is part of the belief group.

For example:

It is ok to express hatred towards MormonISM on “open” Religion Forum threads. It is never ok to express hatred towards Mormons because some Freepers are Mormon.

It is ok to express hatred towards CatholicISM on “open” Religion Forum threads. It is never ok to express hatred towards Catholics because some Freepers are Catholic.

It is ok to express hatred towards ProtestantISM on “open” Religion Forum threads. It is never ok to express hatred towards Protestants because some Freepers are Protestant.

It is ok to express hatred towards SatanISM and Satanists both because no Freeper is Satanist.

And I agree with you that the Moderators do a great job.

[boatbums]

We've already seen that they do NOT follow the ECFs in today's teaching of the RCC!

They do "cafeteria-style".

[Elsie]

Is this the BEST you can do; Mary worshipper?

[ebb tide]

“oh arrogant one” and “Mary worshipper”?

You’re on roll today!

[daniel1212]

And I appreciate your passion for contending for the truth. What I meant, of course, is that disagreeing with certain "isms" (e.g., Catholicism; Protestantism) is NOT being anti-Catholic or anti-Protestant as that would be speaking of hatred towards the person(s). This is based upon the Religion Moderator's rules: It is never within the bounds on the Religion Forum for a Freeper to express his hatred of people who hold a particular belief when any Freeper is part of the belief group. For example: It is ok to express hatred towards MormonISM on “open” Religion Forum threads. It is never ok to express hatred towards Mormons because some Freepers are Mormon. It is ok to express hatred towards CatholicISM on “open” Religion Forum threads. It is never ok to express hatred towards Catholics because some Freepers are Catholic. It is ok to express hatred towards ProtestantISM on “open” Religion Forum threads. It is never ok to express hatred towards Protestants because some Freepers are Protestant. It is ok to express hatred towards SatanISM and Satanists both because no Freeper is Satanist.

Indeed, and yet how often is contending for the Truth and morals of the word of God labeled as abhorrent hatred. And even reproving the hyper-exaltation of the Mary of Catholicism (versus the virtuous surrendered Spirit-filled Mary the mother of Christ) is rendered hating Mary. And or that were are hateful bigots. But the RM advises ,

If the other guy is throwing spitwads at you on an “open” thread it probably means he has run out of ammunition. Take it as a backhanded compliment. You won, walk away.

And I agree with you that the Moderators do a great job.

May we ever have such on FR. And i am sure its not easy.

[Jim W N]

Scripture tries to describe what it is like when we see a loved one or fellow Christian leave this life, because it seems like they are asleep.

But the truth is, if you are a born-again Christian, to be gone from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

2 Cor 5:6-8.

For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better

Phillipians 1:23.

And if you are a born-again Christian, you have ALREADY DIED WITH CHRIST (Rom 6:3-8). Therefore, there is NO death ahead for the Christian because he has already died. Basically when we leave this body we are raptured right into the very presence of our loving God and Savior Jesus Christ forever. There is NO DEATH and NO DREAD ahead for Christians. Only the confident expectation of good forever.

Thank you Jesus.

[Elsie]

You’re on roll today!

HMMMmmm… THIS 'Mary' seems to want to magnify HERSELF!!

 

(Given to St. Dominic and Blessed Alan de la Roche)

1	Whoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall receive powerful graces.
2.	I promise my special protection and the greatest graces to all those who shall recite the Rosary.
3.	The Rosary shall be a powerful armor against hell, it will destroy vice, decrease sin, and defeat heresies
4.	It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of people from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means.
5.	The soul which recommends itself to me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish.
6.	Whoever shall recite the Rosary devoutly, applying Himself to the consideration of its Sacred Mysteries shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise Him in His justice, he shall not perish by an unprovided death; if he be just, he shall remain in the grace of God, and become worthy of eternal life.
7.	Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church.
8.	Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they shall participate in the merits of the Saints in Paradise.
9.	I  shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the Rosary.
10.	The faithful children of the Rosary shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven.
11.	You shall obtain all you ask of me by the recitation of the Rosary.
12.	All those who propagate the Holy Rosary shall be aided by me in their necessities.
13.	I  have obtained from my Divine Son that all the advocates of the Rosary shall have for intercessors the entire celestial court during their life and at the hour of death
14.	All who recite the Rosary are my children, and brothers and sisters of my only Son, Jesus Christ.
15.	Devotion of my Rosary is a great sign of predestination.

 

[Elsie]

But the truth is, if you are a born-again Christian, to be gone from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Dang!

You posted a 'proof text' that simply does NOT say that!

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Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

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I am 'willing' for LOTS of things to happen to me; too; but my 'will' is NOT gonna take precedent over what Scripture has plainly stated elsewhere.

[Elsie]

Centuries of telling the kids that “Gramma’s in Heaven now.” when she dies, and that “GOD needs her more there than we do here.” has warped our thinking over what Scripture teaches.

[Elsie]

For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better

I gots lotsa 'desires'; too.

I'm sure that Lazarus would have been considered 'born again'; but Jesus said nothing about him being in Heaven when HE raised him back to earthly life!

[Elsie]

John 11:21-26

 

²¹ “Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. ²² But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.”

²³ Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

²⁴ Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

²⁵ Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; ²⁶ and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

 

 

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Does not anyone but ME notice that Jesus did NOT correct Martha on her; what some here on FR would consider to be a; FALSE conclusion?

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If you want it in context:  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+11%3A1-44&version=NIV 

[ebb tide]

There you go! When you have no argument, resort to attacking Christ’s Mother.

Classy!

[Jim W N]

“Gramma’s in Heaven now.” is spiritual despite your pronouncement that Martha was declaring doctrine. (Martha, as I think you, had to be constantly corrected by Jesus.)

“GOD needs her more there than we do here.” is not necessarily supported by scripture.

So you do what purveyors of false doctrine always do - mix truth with untruth, Satan's greatest ploy.

[Jim W N]

The “DESIRE” (also “wish” or “willing”) in Philippians 1:23 and 2 Cor 5:6-8 is to be with Christ instead of here - a longing of Paul’s and most of the rest of us. Nothing too mysterious here. And contrary to your earlier misapplication, Scripture talks more about the need for others that we be here, rather than the nonsense that “God needs that person more than we do.”

The DOCTRINE in Philippians 1:23 & 2 Cor 5:6-8 is that to be absent from the flesh is to be present with the Lord.

“Purgatory” is false doctrine not supported by Scripture.

“[I]t is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” Hebrews 9:27.