Posted on 03/13/2019 6:40:19 AM PDT by Antoninus
In part one of this post, I looked at the vision of Perpetua—one of the earliest authentic Christian documents to describe directly a Purgatory-like state and to highlight the efficacy of prayer petitions for the dead.
Others writing during the patristic age also expounded upon this idea in more or less detail, among them St. Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Origen, St. Augustine of Hippo, and St. Caesarius of Arles. One of the most clear references to Purgatory appears in a late 4th century work by Saint Gregory of Nyssa, entitled: “On the Soul and the Resurrection”. St. Gregory writes:
“For [God], the one goal is this: the perfection of the universe through each man individually, the fulfillment of our nature. Some of us are purged of evil in this life, and some are cured of it through fire in the after-life, some have not had the experience of good and evil in life here….The different degrees of virtue or vice in our life will be revealed in our participating more quickly or more slowly in the blessedness we hope for. The extent of the healing with depend on the amount of evil present in each person. The healing of the soul will be purification from evil and this cannot be accomplished without suffering…”Building upon this notion about 200 years later, another Gregory—Pope Saint Gregory the Great—was the first to set forth the notion of Purgatory as Catholics now understand it. As part of his famous Dialogues, he wrote:
“…It is plain that in such state as a man departs out of this life, in the same he is presented in judgment before God. But yet we must believe that before the day of judgment there is a Purgatory fire for certain small sins: because our Savior says, “That he which speaketh blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, that it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come [Matthew 12:32].”Here we see Gregory offering a scriptural proof for Purgatory, out of the mouth of Jesus Himself. He elaborates on this point, citing Saint Paul's first epistle to the Corinthians, chapter 3:
“Out of which sentence we learn, that some sins are forgiven in this world, and some other may be pardoned in the next: for that which is denied concerning one sin, is consequently understood to be granted touching some other. But yet this, as I said, we have not to believe but only concerning little and very small sins, as, for example, daily idle talk, immoderate laughter, negligence in the care of our family (which kind of offenses scarce can they avoid, that know in what sort sin is to be shunned), ignorant errors in matters of no great weight: all which sins be punished after death, if men procured not pardon and remission for them in their lifetime: for when St. Paul said, that “Christ is the foundation:” and by and by added: “And if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: the work of every one, of what kind it is, the fire shall try. If any man's work abide which he built thereupon, he shall receive reward; if any man’s work burn, he shall suffer detriment, but himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.”Gregory then goes on to explain St. Paul’s meaning, drawing a distinction between what we would later call mortal and venial sins:
“For although these words may be understood of the fire of tribulation, which men suffer in this world: yet if any will interpret them of the fire of Purgatory, which shall be in the next life: then must he carefully consider, that the Apostle said not that he may be saved by fire, that buildeth upon this foundation iron, brass, or lead, that is, the greater sort of sins, and therefore more hard, and consequently not remissible in that place: but wood, hay, stubble, that is, little and very light sins, which the fire doth easily consume. Yet we have here further to consider, that none can be there purged, no, not for the least sins that be, unless in his lifetime he deserved by virtuous works to find such favor in that place.” [Dialogues, Book 4:39]
“Funny how The Jews prayed for the dead....”
The Jews are not Christians, so this is irrelevant.
“Funny that he would do if Gregory were all the things you say he was.
Yet clearly not infallible, nor omniscient.
In this instance, wrong honestly or deceived.
I was not sure what your argument is, but apart from justifying faith, we are all as an unclean thing, for
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. (Isaiah 64:6)
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (Romans 3:10)
But even the believing Corinthians, who yet had carnal traits, were told,
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:11)
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. (Ephesians 1:6)
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: (Ephesians 2:5-6)
Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. (Hebrews 10:18-22)
Yet even though saving faith is that which effects characteristic obedience to God by the Spirit, (Rm. 8:14), resulting in"things that accompany salvation," (Hebrews 6:9) yet they were not perfect in character, and possesses their unclean carnal nature.
Thus, if “nothing unclean shall enter heaven” excludes such as being unclean then these would not even presently be declared washed, sanctified, and justified, nor have access into the holy of holies in Heaven, nor go there at death or the Lord's return. Yet as yet imperfect believers (as Paul confessed he was) are promised they will be with the Lord at death, or at His return, whatever comes first.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:6-8)
For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: (Philippians 1:23)
And with the only postmortem suffering that being that loss of rewards (and the grievous displeasure of the Lord) at His return (see post 50)
Moreover, the only transformative experience for after this life that is clearly taught is that of the resurrection of believers, which does what Purgatory can only hope to do:
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Philippians 3:20-21)
That Catholicism being heretical simply does not translate into the the gates of Hell prevailing, nor that all teachings held by Catholicism are false
For first, the church which the Lord promised to overcome the gates of Hell and which is what the Spirit baptizes ever believer into, (1Co. 12:13) and to which He is married, is not one particular organic church or groups of such (nor necessarily opposed to them), but the one true church is the spiritual body of Christ, which uniquely only always consists 100% of true believers, while organic fellowships in which they express their faith inevitably become admixtures of wheat and tares, with Catholicism and liberal Protestantism being mostly the latter.
Secondly, "Bible Christians" are the most foremost defenders (%-wise) of core Scriptural Truths which Catholics (at least) professes. (But which does not translate into affirming her claim of ensured veracity or authority over us any more than it does affirming Truths that Pharisees held to.)
Nor does believing that distinctive Catholic teachings are not manifest in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (including how they understood the OT and gospels), which is Scripture - especially Acts thru Revelation - simply does not mean all Catholics are lost. For a relative remnant actually are part of the body of Christ. However, and i speaks as a former weekly Mass-going RC and CCD teacher and lector but with no personal grudge, Catholicism has become as the gates of Hell for multitudes, as has liberal Protestantism.
Placemarker - marking to wait for any evidence at all before 100 ad that might support this claim in post #1
You cannot handle The Truth, so you just refuse to read the posts which do not align with what catholiciism has indoctrinated you with. Answer this: Does purgatory cleansing happen outside of Heaven? If so, then it is not supported by the twisted referencing your religion places upon SCRIPTURE, for the Bema Seat of Christ Jesus takes place IN HEAVEN and is a rewards judgment seat, not a punishment judgment.
A Very Good Question! And the answer is nothing less than the fact that my substantiated interpretation of Scripture as regards RC Purgatory is far and away superior to that of Saint Gregory, who I do not see even text-proofing RC Purgatory, but argues for fire purifying man inn the context of the Resurrection, with this being being “the reconstitution of our nature in its original form" "with the casting off of that tunic, fling from us all the belongings that were round us of that skin of a brute; and such accretions are sexual intercourse, conception..."
Which one could try to say 1 Cor. 3 refers to, but which event incontrovertibly takes place at the second coming and the resurrection of believers, and not indeterminate purifying commencing at death, with punishments to atone for sins and make one perfect in character.
And again, it is absurd that the doctrine as Purgatory would not be clearly taught when the second coming and the believers transformation, and the judgment seat of Christ is clearly taught.
Thus the recourse to Tradition, yet even then you have competing contradictory claims as to what it teaches. Thus you have EOs who assert,
The Orthodox Church opposes the Roman doctrines of universal papal jurisdiction, papal infallibility, purgatory, and the Immaculate Conception precisely because they are untraditional." - Orthodox apologist and author Clark Carlton: THE WAY: What Every Protestant Should Know About the Orthodox Church, 1997, p 135.
►Both purgatory and indulgences are inter-corrolated theories, unwitnessed in the Bible or in the Ancient Church.. — http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7076
►The Orthodox Church does not believe in purgatory (a place of purging), that is, the inter-mediate state after death in which the souls of the saved (those who have not received temporal punishment for their sins) are purified of all taint preparatory to entering into Heaven, where every soul is perfect and fit to see God.
Also, the Orthodox Church does not believe in indulgences as remissions from purgatoral punishment. Both purgatory and indulgences are inter-corrolated theories, unwitnessed in the Bible or in the Ancient Church, and when they were enforced and applied they brought about evil practices at the expense of the prevailing Truths of the Church. If Almighty God in His merciful loving-kindness changes the dreadful situation of the sinner, it is unknown to the Church of Christ. The Church lived for fifteen hundred years without such a theory. — http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7076
Roman Catholicism, unable to show a continuity of faith and in order to justify new doctrine, erected in the last century, a theory of "doctrinal development." Following the philosophical spirit of the time (and the lead of Cardinal Henry Newman), Roman Catholic theologians began to define and teach the idea that Christ only gave us an "original deposit" of faith, a "seed," which grew and matured through the centuries....
On this basis, theories such as the dogmas of "papal infallibility" and "the immaculate conception" of the Virgin Mary (about which we will say more) are justifiably presented to the Faithful as necessary to their salvation. - http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html
More .
By no means, but because distinctive Catholic teachings are not manifest in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (including how they understood the OT and gospels), which is Scripture, especially Acts thru Revelation. .
“I think the chances are much better that you are wrong honestly or deceived.”
Sorry but I know what God said in His inspired Word.
He outranks both you and the “pope”.
I’ll take my chances with Pope Gregory I.”
(Don’t outsource your mind to a man.)
And I will rest in God and His authoritative Scripture.
But aren’t the souls in Purgatory alive?
They will be re-united with their bodies at the Final Judgment.
Either He died for ALL our sins or not at all. His wasn’t a partial saving of the soul it was the complete. Just because some people hundreds of years later after the death and Resurrection of Yeshua come up with this Purgatory thing doesn’t make it true. It was part and parcel of indulgences that was foisted on the ignorant; to pay to have their relatives released from Purgatory. Paul wrote: To be absent from the body is to be with Christ not in some fanciful place created called Purgatory.
“are Baptized and die with only small spots of sin on the soul, ”
False.
Either all your sins were forgiven by Christ’s sacrifice, and are gone, or all your sins remain.
If the first, you are going to heaven.
If the second, you’re headed to hell.
“But aren’t the souls in Purgatory alive?”
No.
In fact there is no soul in purgatory because purgatory is a myth.
I believe you are mistaken.
Bye.
Indeed so. Paul says “by grace you HAVE BEEN saved.”
In the Greek it’s even more clear; the tense specifically means a completed action with enduring results.
Catholic doctrine basically says “By grace you might be saved if you’re good enough.”
Which is a sad thing.
Christians receive a new body at the Rapture of the Ekklesia.
The way I see it, the RCC is a works denomination; Grace but .... Martin Luther had it nailed so to speak.
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