The Muratorian fragment, dated 170 A.D., affirms 22 out of 27 New Testament books

Wintery Knight ^ | 03/19/2016

[Mrs. Don-o]

Neither you nor any other FReeper has been able to demonstrate the formation of the NT canon by means of any process or authority other than Sacred Tradition. Meaniing, the preservation of Apostolic Truths in the actual practice of the Apostolic Churches, long before they were collected codified and confirmed by Synods and Councils (though such codification was a necessary part of the process.)

The texts used as suitable for the Liturgy in the churches became, ipso facto, canonized. That’s it, tout court.

Wrangle on without me. I am in the midst of the Triduum and, for the most part, outta here until after Easter. Repent I must. Pray for me.

[metmom]

Neither you nor any other FReeper has been able to demonstrate the formation of the NT canon by means of any process or authority other than Sacred Tradition.

Nor has any FReeper ever established that Catholic premise justifies the demand for blanket acceptance of anything the Catholic church deems as "sacred tradition" as truth sent from God.

Even if, *IF*, "Sacred Tradition" was a legitimate basis for determining truth, Catholics are still in a position of having to prove that everything they claim is from God really is, including praying to the dead, praying for the dead, sacraments etc.

And the same authority of the "sensus fidelium" --- "big-T Tradition," the actual practice of the actual churches of Asia, Africa and Europe--- which gave us the Canon of Scripture, gave us also the Sacraments, praying for the dead, praying with the Saints in Heaven, veneration for Beata Maria Semper Virgineand other beliefs and practices still carried on by over a billion Christians to the present day

Over a billion CATHOLICS everyday.

Or are you presuming that everyone is supposed to be a Catholic is truly a Christian?

[ealgeone]

...gave us also the Sacraments, praying for the dead, praying with the Saints in Heaven, veneration for Beata Maria Semper Virgineand other beliefs and practices still carried on by over a billion Christians to the present day.

Yet we see none of that in Scripture you say they "gave" us.

The correct phrase would be to say carried out by over a billion catholics.

There is a difference between Christianity and roman catholicism.

[Elsie]

And that’s why there’s no reason to be skeptical that the Bible we have today is any different than the Bible that everybody in the early church had.

Too bad that it shows that many Catholic 'doctrines' were added to BASIC Christianity later.

[Elsie]

Do they throw any core doctrines into doubt?

Core?

Or Catholic??

[Elsie]

I think it comes from some Hollywood movie, or maybe a TV show.

I'm glad THAT is settled!

[Elsie]

Although there is still dispute about some books, that does not negate the fact that the main books we use (the gospels, Acts, the letters of Paul) are all considered to be canon by 180 A.D

ALL of Acts?

Even chapter 15??

Golly, most of the things that Rome says are so VERY important are NOT found there!

HMMMmmm...

[Elsie]

The four Gospels are also referred to in the Canon Muratorianus, a seventh or eighth century manuscript originally translated from Greek into a deponent form of Latin and widely regarded as having been produced ca. 170 CE.

I'd like to see EVIDENCE of THIS source!

[Elsie]

MORMONs; too!

[Elsie]

The fragment, consisting of 85 lines, is a 7th-century Latin manuscript bound in a 7th or 8th century codex from the library of Columban’s monastery at Bobbio;

 it contains features suggesting it is a translation from a Greek original written about 170 or as late as the 4th century.

[Elsie]

The Word was getting around very early in the early church!

And the early church was CATHOLIC!

Rome says so!

It was Catholic before Catholic was cool!

or documented.

[Elsie]

Another odd thing about citing the Muratorian fragment is that its author is plainly defining the canon not by which books are doctrinally authoritative, but which are fitting to be used in public worship.

???

[Elsie]

Give a high five to St. Augustine for encouraging St. Jerome to stop being slothful and start being industrious.

And for other stuff; too!

---

Pay close attention now...

 As regards the oft-quoted Mt. 16:18

• Augustine, sermon:

"Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter's confession. What is Peter's confession? 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' There's the rock for you, there's the foundation, there's where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer. — John Rotelle, O.S.A., Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine , © 1993 New City Press, Sermons, Vol III/6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327

Upon this rock, said the Lord, I will build my Church. Upon this confession, upon this that you said, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,' I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer her (Mt. 16:18). — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 236A.3, p. 48.

• Augustine, sermon:

For petra (rock) is not derived from Peter, but Peter from petra; just as Christ is not called so from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. For on this very account the Lord said, 'On this rock will I build my Church,' because Peter had said, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On this rock, therefore, He said, which thou hast confessed, I will build my Church. For the Rock (Petra) was Christ; and on this foundation was Peter himself built. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Christ Jesus. The Church, therefore, which is founded in Christ received from Him the keys of the kingdom of heaven in the person of Peter, that is to say, the power of binding and loosing sins. For what the Church is essentially in Christ, such representatively is Peter in the rock (petra); and in this representation Christ is to be understood as the Rock, Peter as the Church. — Augustine Tractate CXXIV; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers: First Series, Volume VII Tractate CXXIV (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf107.iii.cxxv.html)

• Augustine, sermon:

And Peter, one speaking for the rest of them, one for all, said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God (Mt 16:15-16)...And I tell you: you are Peter; because I am the rock, you are Rocky, Peter-I mean, rock doesn't come from Rocky, but Rocky from rock, just as Christ doesn't come from Christian, but Christian from Christ; and upon this rock I will build my Church (Mt 16:17-18); not upon Peter, or Rocky, which is what you are, but upon the rock which you have confessed. I will build my Church though; I will build you, because in this answer of yours you represent the Church. — John Rotelle, O.S.A. Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 270.2, p. 289

• Augustine, sermon:

Peter had already said to him, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' He had already heard, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not conquer her' (Mt 16:16-18)...Christ himself was the rock, while Peter, Rocky, was only named from the rock. That's why the rock rose again, to make Peter solid and strong; because Peter would have perished, if the rock hadn't lived. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 244.1, p. 95

• Augustine, sermon:

...because on this rock, he said, I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not overcome it (Mt. 16:18). Now the rock was Christ (1 Cor. 10:4). Was it Paul that was crucified for you? Hold on to these texts, love these texts, repeat them in a fraternal and peaceful manner. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1995), Sermons, Volume III/10, Sermon 358.5, p. 193

• Augustine, Psalm LXI:

Let us call to mind the Gospel: 'Upon this Rock I will build My Church.' Therefore She crieth from the ends of the earth, whom He hath willed to build upon a Rock. But in order that the Church might be builded upon the Rock, who was made the Rock? Hear Paul saying: 'But the Rock was Christ.' On Him therefore builded we have been. — Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume VIII, Saint Augustin, Exposition on the Book of Psalms, Psalm LXI.3, p. 249. (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf108.ii.LXI.html)

• Augustine, in “Retractions,”

In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: 'On him as on a rock the Church was built.'...But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,' that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received 'the keys of the kingdom of heaven.' For, 'Thou art Peter' and not 'Thou art the rock' was said to him. But 'the rock was Christ,' in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable. — The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1:.

 

[Legatus]

???

Why do you think a canon had to be made exactly? The Bible was compiled for the purposes of what could be read in church.

[Elsie]

...the actual practice of the actual churches of Asia, Africa and Europe---

Those seven mentioned by John?

Those CATHOLIC ones??

[Elsie]

...gave us also the Sacraments, praying for the dead, praying with the Saints in Heaven, veneration for Beata Maria Semper Virgine and other beliefs and practices still carried on by over a billion Christians to the present day.

I see...

I like Rome's book; but I can't find MOST of the above IN it.

I wonder why?

[Elsie]

Neither you nor any other FReeper has been able to demonstrate the formation of the NT canon by means of any process or authority other than Sacred Tradition.

Neither you nor any other Catholic has been able to demonstrate the formation of the NT canon by means of any process or authority that was CALLED Catholicism.

[Elsie]

You noticed too; eh?

[Elsie]

True; but what’s this thing referred to as FITTING?

[MHGinTN]

How does that saying go in Momronism ... lying for the Lord? But to put together as all truth some little stretches of facts is just giving little deceits, not big ones. Sadly, tying a piece of fact to a little lie makes the fact serve a lie. A Christian cannot do that without Holy Spirit conviction, so, if someone keeps doing such boldly, what does that ...