Posted on 02/25/2002 11:01:41 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
27. This is the blasphemy for which (however I love the persons who assert it) I abhor the doctrine of predestination, a doctrine, upon the supposition of which, if one could possibly suppose it for a moment, (call it election, reprobation, or what you please, for all comes to the same thing,) one might say to our adversary, the devil, "Thou fool, why dost thou roar about any longer? Thy lying in wait for souls is as needless and useless as our preaching. Hearest thou not, that God hath taken thy work out of thy hands; and that he doeth it much more effectually? Thou, with all thy principalities and powers, canst only so assault that we may resist thee; but He can irresistibly destroy both body and soul in hell! Thou canst only entice; but his unchangeable decrees, to leave thousands of souls in death, compels them to continue in sin, till they drop into everlasting burnings. Thou temptest; He forceth us to be damned; for we cannot resist his will. Thou fool, why goest thou about any longer, seeking whom thou mayest devour? Hearest thou not that God is the devouring lion, the destroyer of souls, the murderer of men" Moloch caused only children to pass though the fire: and that fire was soon quenched; or, the corruptible body being consumed, its torment was at an end; but God, thou are told, by his eternal decree, fixed before they had done good or evil, causes, not only children of a span long, but the parents also, to pass through the fire of hell, the 'fire which never shall be quenched; and the body which is cast thereinto, being now incorruptible and immortal, will be ever consuming and never consumed, but 'the smoke of their torment,' because it is God's good pleasure, 'ascendeth up for ever and ever.'"
28. O how would the enemy of God and man rejoice to hear these things were so!
Awesome post ftD. Rnmomof7, thank God you are part of the Wesley tradition. Lovingly, we entreat our calvinist brethren to consider the impact of their teachings. But whatever the bible means, as Wesley says, it cannot mean that God created countless billions of souls with the ORIGINAL intention that they have no hope. Whatever the bile might mean, it cannot mean this.
BTW, my biggest beef with Wesley was his un-Christian attack upon his friend, George Whitfield. However, I think he has had ample time to realize his error and apologize to his friend by now.
Jerry, I am a child of the Lord Jesus.
Possibly because the devil isn't a Calvinist and believes his own lies?
You still haven't answered my question.
Answer #2.
Who said that hell was recruiting?
All men who are not graciously saved by the power of God are already bound for hell. The devil loves company (he is not lord of hell, hell is his punishment as well), and hates God so much that he mistakenly thinks that he can hurt God and confound God's purposes.
What do YOU think the bible teaches on the subject?
I see that xzins has found Supra-Calvinism. (Did I get the label right?)
I've caught something and didn't even know I had it.
In actuality, I NOW remember having read this Wesley sermon during seminary. Too bad it hadn't surfaced in our discussions much earlier. But ftD has been busy searching these things out and posting them.
They'll be some great fodder for these Free Grace debates. Wesley was such a great Christian.
Did you know that until Billy Graham, no one had traveled more miles in a lifetime in preaching the gospel than had Wesley?
I think that the Bible supports the contentions of my post number 8. Why would you consider this to be demeaning?
Also, you have yet to answer my question. Why are you avoiding it?
Suffice it to say that the differences between a "supralapsarian" and "infralapsarian" position are those of the timing of the decrees of God prior to creation. Even then, I have vastly oversimplified the subject, and do not do credit to its subject matter. This page appears to give a fairly good summary of the positions.
Acually, I don't care if you answer it as a general sense, either. So forget I asked your biblical understanding; I don't really care. I don't even care why you're interested in dwelling on it.
I do wonder, however, as Wesley pointed out in this article: Why would the devil go about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour, if he isn't going to get EVEN ONE of those that God chose for heaven? Nor will he lose even one of those that God chose for hell.
Wesley makes a good point. The devil can just sit by and wait. The tulip God has guaranteed the roaring lion (devil) a large number of prey and a successful hunt.
Actually Jerry, they patched up their differences, or at the very least their relationship here on earth. Wesley preached at Whitefield's funeral:
The following quote is from the close of John Wesley's funeral oration at Whitefield's Memorial Service on Sunday 18th November 1770.“I may close this head with observing what an honour it pleased God to put upon His faithful servant, by allowing him to declare His ever lasting Gospel in so many various countries, to such numbers of people, and with so great an effect on so many of their precious souls.
“Have we read or heard of any person since the apostles, who testified the Gospel of the grace of God, through so widely extended a space, through so large a part of the habitable world? Have we read or heard of any person, who called so many thousands, so many myriads of sinners to repentance? Above all, have we read or heard of any, who has been a blessed instrument in the hand of God, of bringing so many sinners from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God?”
So, now you can at least let him off the hook for that one. ;-)
Do you consider this sermon an "attack on Whitfield?" If not, if it is a general evaluation of the tulip doctrine, then what were his specific attacks on Whitfield?
You really think that the devil can snatch anyone out of Christ's hand? If so, then go back and read John Chapter 10.
Also, what is your conception of the devil's final state? Does he win anything, at all? Will he enjoy the fruit of his rebellion against God? Of course not. My Bible says:
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. - Revelation 20:10
Of course, you still continue to side-step the question that is important for the here and now. I will answer it for you: The devil does have the power to confuse God's people. He has the ability to fill our minds with all kinds of faulty thinking. Thus the Scpriptural warnings to beware of his cunning. All Christians are succeptable to satanic delusion, especially those who don't think it can happen to them.
Whitefield and the Wesleys apparently got over it. Too bad others can't.
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