Free Republic
Browse · Search
Bloggers & Personal
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Were Our Founding Fathers Racist? The Slaves are 3/5ths of a Person Debate
RedState ^ | July 18, 2010 | Jeff Dunetz

Posted on 02/10/2017 12:25:57 PM PST by EveningStar

Many in the progressive world, believe that our founding fathers were racist. As their evidence they point to Article 1, Section 2, Paragraph 3 of the United States Constitution:

“ Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.”

To the liberals, the 3/5th figure is an indication that our founding fathers were a bunch of racists who thought that the African Slaves were less than human.

The truth is that the founders from the northern colonies  who opposed Slavery, insisted on counting the slaves as less than “full persons.” The reason for the insistence, is to prevent the slave states from getting too many congressman and electoral votes as to dominate the government and prevent Slavery from ever being abolished.


(Excerpt) Read more at redstate.com ...


TOPICS: Government; History; Politics; Society
KEYWORDS: fakedebate; foundingfathers; jeffdunetz; redstate; slavery; threefifthsclause
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-56 next last
To: Lord Castlereagh
It was still anti-slave and anti-slaveholder, as it limited the power of slaveholding states, based, well, on slavery.

Actually it gave slaveholding states a disproportionately high level of representation. Slaves were considered property and not people, so they had no need for Congressional representation. Yet they were counted as 3/5ths when proportioning congressmen.

21 posted on 02/10/2017 12:52:25 PM PST by DoodleDawg
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: ifinnegan

just curious - how did the early states verify the number of citizens? If Virginia said they had 3,000,000 citizens, or 6,000,000, How would the Federal Government know?


22 posted on 02/10/2017 12:52:39 PM PST by FatherofFive (Islam is EVIL and needs to be eradicated)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: EveningStar

Bring REAL history and REAL discussion back to the classroom!


23 posted on 02/10/2017 12:53:18 PM PST by onedoug
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: AEMILIUS PAULUS

The minute any liberal brings up the 3/5 topic - that’s when I just terminate the conversation. Anybody who is so dumb as to push the “3/5 of a person” argument is not worth having a discussion with.

It is somewhat like discussing The Bell Curve. Most people have never read the book. Most of those who have read it don’t understand the statistics. But they are sure it’s racist! LOL


24 posted on 02/10/2017 12:57:35 PM PST by ladyjane
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: EveningStar
When will these African nations ever apologize or pay "reparations" for slavery? Better yet, when will they end the practice?

Slavery in modern Africa

Slavery in Africa continues today. Slavery existed in Africa before the arrival of Europeans - as did a slave trade that exported millions of sub-Saharan Africans to North Africa, the Middle East, and the Persian Gulf.[1] However, slavery and bondage are still African realities. Hundreds of thousands of Africans still suffer in silence in slave-like situations of forced labour and commercial sexual exploitation from which they cannot free themselves.

Modern-day enslavers also exploit lack of political will at the highest levels of some African governments to effectively tackle trafficking and its root causes. Weak interagency co-ordination and low funding levels for ministries tasked with prosecuting traffickers, preventing trafficking and protecting victims also enable traffickers to continue their operations. The transnational criminal nature of trafficking also overwhelms many countries' law enforcement agencies, which are not equipped to fight organized criminal gangs that operate across national boundaries with impunity.

Slavery by African country

Chad
IRIN (Integrated Regional Information Networks) of the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs reports children being sold to Arab herdsmen in Chad. As part of a new identity imposed on them the herdsman "...change their name, forbid them to speak in their native dialect, ban them from conversing with people from their own ethnic group and make them adopt Islam as their religion."[2]

Mali
The Malian government denies that slavery exists, however, the slavery in Timbuktu is obvious. Slavery still continues with some Tuaregs holding Bella people.[3]

Mauritania
A system exists now by which Arab Muslims -- the bidanes -- own black slaves, the haratines.[4] An estimated 90,000 black Mauritanians remain essentially enslaved to Arab/Berber owners.[5] The ruling bidanes (the name means literally white-skinned people) are descendants of the Sanhaja Berbers and Beni Hassan Arab tribes who emigrated to northwest Africa and present-day Western Sahara and Mauritania during the Middle Ages.[6] According to some estimates, up to 600,000 black Mauritanians, or 20% of the population, are still enslaved, many of them used as bonded labour.[7] Slavery in Mauritania was finally criminalized in August 2007.[8] Malouma Messoud, a former Muslim slave has explained her enslavement to a religious leader:

"We didn't learn this history in school; we simply grew up within this social hierarchy and lived it. Slaves believe that if they do not obey their masters, they will not go to paradise. They are raised in a social and religious system that everyday reinforces this idea.[9]"

In Mauritania, despite slave ownership having been banned by law in 1981, hereditary slavery continues.[10] Moreover, according to Amnesty International:

"Not only has the government denied the existence of slavery and failed to respond to cases brought to its attention, it has hampered the activities of organisations which are working on the issue, including by refusing to grant them official recognition".[11]

Imam El Hassan Ould Benyamin of Tayarat in 1997 expressed his views about earlier proclamations ending slavery in his country as follows:

"[it] is contrary to the teachings of the fundamental text of Islamic law, the Quran ... [and] amounts to the expropriation from muslims of their goods; goods that were acquired legally. The state, if it is Islamic, does not have the right to seize my house, my wife or my slave."[12]

Niger
In Niger, where the practice of slavery was outlawed in 2003, a study found that almost 8% of the population are still slaves.[13] Slavery dates back for centuries in Niger and was finally criminalised in 2003, after five years of lobbying by Anti-Slavery International and Nigerian human-rights group, Timidria.[14] More than 870,000 people still live in conditions of forced labour, according to Timidria, a local human rights group.[15][16]

Descent-based slavery, where generations of the same family are born into bondage, is traditionally practiced by at least four of Niger's eight ethnic groups. The slave masters are mostly from the nomadic tribes -- the Tuareg, Fulani, Toubou and Arabs.[17] It is especially rife among the warlike Tuareg, in the wild deserts of north and west Niger, who roam near the borders with Mali and Algeria.[18] In the region of Say on the right bank of the river Niger, it is estimated that three-quarters of the population around 1904-1905 was composed of slaves.[19]

Historically, the Tuareg swelled the ranks of their slaves during war raids into other peoples' lands. War was then the main source of supply of slaves, although many were bought at slave markets, run mostly by indigenous peoples.[20][21]

Sudan
Francis Bok, former Sudanese slave. At the age of seven, he was captured during a raid in Southern Sudan, and enslaved for ten years.(Courtesy Unitarian Universalist Association/Jeanette Leardi)

There has been a recrudescence of jihad slavery since 1983 in the Sudan.[23][24]

Slavery in the Sudan predates Islam, but continued under Islamic rulers and has never completely died out in Sudan. In the Sudan, Christian and animist captives in the civil war are often enslaved, and female prisoners are often used sexually, with their Muslim captors claiming that Islamic law grants them permission.[25] According to CBS news, slaves have been sold for $50 apiece. [1] In 2001 CNN reported the Bush administration was under pressure from Congress, including conservative Christians concerned about religious oppression and slavery, to address issues involved in the Sudanese conflict.[26] CNN has also quoted the U.S. State Department's allegations: "The [Sudanese] government's support of slavery and its continued military action which has resulted in numerous deaths are due in part to the victims' religious beliefs." [2]

Jok Madut Jok, professor of History at Loyola Marymount University, states that the abduction of women and children of the south by north is slavery by any definition. The government of Sudan insists that the whole matter is no more than the traditional tribal feuding over resources.[27]

It is estimated that as many as 200,000 people had been taken into slavery during the Second Sudanese Civil War. The slaves are mostly Dinka people.[28][29]

South Africa
Despite significant efforts made by the South African Government to combat trafficking in persons the country has been placed on the "Tier 2 Watch List" by the US Department of Trafficking in Persons,for the past four years.[47] South Africa shares borders with Namibia, Botswana, Zimbabwe, Lesotho, Mozambique and Swaziland. It has 72 official ports of entry "and a number of unofficial ports of entry where people come in and out without being detected" along its 5 000 km-long land borderline. The problem of porous borders is compounded by the lack of adequately trained employees, resulting in few police officials controlling large portions of the country's coastline.

Child slave trade
The trading of children has been reported in modern Nigeria and Benin.[30] The children are kidnapped or purchased for $20 - $70 each by slavers in poorer states, such as Benin and Togo, and sold into slavery in sex dens or as unpaid domestic servants for $350.00 each in wealthier oil-rich states, such as Nigeria and Gabon.[31] [32]

Ghana, Togo, Benin
In parts of Ghana, a family may be punished for an offense by having to turn over a virgin female to serve as a sex slave within the offended family.[33] In this instance, the woman does not gain the title of "wife". In parts of Ghana, Togo, and Benin, shrine slavery persists, despite being illegal in Ghana since 1998. In this system of slavery, sometimes called trokosi (in Ghana) or voodoosi in Togo and Benin, or ritual servitude, young virgin girls are given as slaves in traditional shrines and are used sexually by the priests in addition to providing free labor for the shrine.[34]

Ethiopia
Mahider Bitew, Children's Rights and Protection expert at the Ministry of Women's Affairs, says that some isolated studies conducted in Dire Dawa, Shashemene, Awassa and three other towns of the country indicate that the problem of child trafficking is very serious. According to a 2003 study about one thousand children were trafficked via Dire Dawa to countries of the Middle East. The majority of those children were girls, most of whom were forced to be sex workers after leaving the country. The International Labor Organization (ILO) has identified prostitution as the Worst Form of Child Labor.[35]

In Ethiopia, children are trafficked into prostitution, to provide cheap or unpaid labor and to work as domestic servants or beggars. The ages of these children are usually between 10 and 18 and their trafficking is from the country to urban centers and from cities to the country. Boys are often expected to work in activities such as herding cattle in rural areas and in the weaving industry in Addis Ababa, and other major towns. Girls are expected to take responsibilities for domestic chores, childcare and looking after the sick and to work as prostitutes.[35]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_modern_Africa

Or,

http://web.archive.org/web/20160108090835/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_modern_Africa%3C/a%3E

*******************************************************************

The Price in Blood
Casualties in the Civil War

At least 618,000 Americans died in the Civil War, and some experts say the toll reached 700,000.

The number that is most often quoted is 620,000. At any rate, these casualties exceed the nation’s loss in all its other wars, from the Revolution through Vietnam.

The Union armies had from 2,500,000 to 2,750,000 men. Their losses, by the best estimates:
Battle deaths: 110,070
Disease, etc: 250,152
Total 360,222

The Confederate strength, known less accurately because of missing records, was from 750,000 to 1,250,000. Its estimated losses:
Battle deaths: 94,000
Disease, etc: 164,000
Total: 258,000

http://civilwarhome.com/casualties.htm


25 posted on 02/10/2017 12:58:24 PM PST by ETL (Trump admin apparently playing "good cop, bad cop" with thug Putin (see my FR Home page))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: EveningStar

Well, the South considered the slaves property, and thus were not allowed to vote. The North objected, and asked why property should be counted for representation, when the South was clearly denying that representation.

The South was not going to join the Union without a compromise. If there was not compromise, there’s no USA, and slavery would have continued unabated. Once the Union was formed, the abolitionist of the North, took action to limit the spread.


26 posted on 02/10/2017 12:59:47 PM PST by greeneyes
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: EveningStar

Who cares? I will not disavow my forefathers.


27 posted on 02/10/2017 1:00:01 PM PST by Altura Ct.
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: arrogantsob

On the surface it looks that way. And haters insist on hating. But its absolutely TRUE reason was to tamp down the population figures, which translate into Electoral Votes, and would empower slave states to always REMAIN that way.


28 posted on 02/10/2017 1:05:14 PM PST by Tucker39 (In giving us The Christ, God gave us the ONE thing we desperately NEEDED; a Savior.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: DoodleDawg

Disproportionately high compared to what, exactly? Remember, the slaveholders wanted them counted not as 3/5, but as 5/5.


29 posted on 02/10/2017 1:07:02 PM PST by Lord Castlereagh
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: EveningStar

Were our Founding Fathers “racist”?

Well, of course they were, in the sense that everyone is. The word itself is of recent vintage and is without fixed meaning.

The 1790 Naturalization Act specified that naturalization was restricted to “immigrants who were free white persons of good character”.

But this is common, even in the 21st century. Zimbabwe is for blacks, by their own declaration. Japan is for Japanese. Malaysia admits (grudgingly) Chinese, but they are disadvantaged in law and by custom, and no one objects. Israel is a Jewish state.

As far as the “3/5 of a person” lie, it was’t meant to devalue blacks, but rather to reduce the representation in the House of Representatives of states which permitted slavery.


30 posted on 02/10/2017 1:07:08 PM PST by Jim Noble (Die Gedanken sind Frei)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: EveningStar

Our founding Fathers wer geniuses down to the last man, and some of the greatest men to walk this Earth.


31 posted on 02/10/2017 1:11:32 PM PST by brucedickinson
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ifinnegan

It was solely about apportionment representation. It had nothing to do with voting simply because in most states you either had to be a white male to vote and some states required paying taxes, being a landowner and or being literate to vote. Slaves were in none of these groups. Early one, blacks were expressly forbidden to vote.


32 posted on 02/10/2017 1:15:02 PM PST by Mouton (There is a new sheriff in town.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Timpanagos1

Oh, like that would have flown in the southern states. Sure it would have settled it , I suppose, but do really think the slaves votes would have been counted fairly - If at all?

The founders wanted One Nation. They knew a whole lot of crap would have to be addressed later, but they wanted it addressed by a single nation.


33 posted on 02/10/2017 1:15:54 PM PST by AFreeBird
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Lord Castlereagh
Disproportionately high compared to what, exactly? Remember, the slaveholders wanted them counted not as 3/5, but as 5/5

Compared to their place in Southern society. Slaves were property. They had no rights whatsoever. They had no need for representation in Congress. Yet they were counted when it came to proportioning representation. A state with 500,000 free people and 500,000 slaves got the same number of representatives in Congress that a state with 800,000 free people did. That's gave the slave state a disproportionately high number of congressmen.

34 posted on 02/10/2017 1:16:45 PM PST by DoodleDawg
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: EveningStar

If we had picked our own damned cotton, we wouldn’t have these problems!


35 posted on 02/10/2017 1:19:12 PM PST by Strac6 ("We sleep safe in our beds only because rough men stand ready to visit violence on the enemy.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Regulator

I agree with you. However women, children, and foreigners had no say in the government, but they were counted for representation. But—the slave owners would have counted them as 2x non slaves if they thought they’d’ve gotten away with it. The whole 3/5 proves racism argument is bogus. Before the Constitution, the Northwest Ordinance passed by the Founding Fathers prohibited slavery in the NW Territory. And Congress abolished the overseas slave trade as soon as the Constitution allowed.


36 posted on 02/10/2017 1:19:55 PM PST by hanamizu
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: All

Illegal aliens today count as a whole person for apportioning the house, so lack of a legal basis for voting is irrelevant.

Further, 19th Century white women couldn’t vote either, so what’s the big deal.


37 posted on 02/10/2017 1:20:30 PM PST by FirstFlaBn
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: EveningStar
On February 12, 1790, a petition from Benjamin Franklin and the Pennsylvania Abolition Society was presented to the House of Representatives calling for the federal government to take steps for the gradual abolition of slavery and end the slave trade. The petition stated that slavery and the slave trade were incompatible with the values of freedom of the American Revolution.

Benjamin Franklin and His Fight to Abolish Slavery

38 posted on 02/10/2017 1:21:07 PM PST by \/\/ayne (I regret that I have but one subscription cancellation notice to give to my local newspaper.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: DoodleDawg

So you still agree with my original point, yes? It was an ANTI-SLAVEHOLDER clause. Sure, it could have been a more effective or less effective anti-SH clause, but, still, it was an anti-SH clause.

I think your point is it could have been made even worse for slaveholders. Well, yes, it could have been. Or it could have been made better, too.


39 posted on 02/10/2017 1:21:42 PM PST by Lord Castlereagh
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Lord Castlereagh
It was an ANTI-SLAVEHOLDER clause.

It was a compromise that gave the slaveholders more than half of what they wanted. Three-fifths of what they wanted to be precise. Had they gotten two-fifths or zero then that would have been anti-slaveholder.

40 posted on 02/10/2017 1:36:59 PM PST by DoodleDawg
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-56 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Bloggers & Personal
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson