Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Put the Phosphate Back into your Dish detergent
Self | 6/26/2011 | Self

Posted on 06/26/2011 12:13:10 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants

As many of you have discovered, you automatic dish detergent hasn't been working very well for the past year, leaving a white film on the dishes. Well, the reason, as usual, is the envirowhackos using junk science to claim that algae blooms in rivers are caused by the phosphates in your dish detergent. The phosphates in detergent do NOT cause the algae to bloom because the algae can't break down the trisodium phosphates. So, instead of check out the facts, the detergent companies were more interested in currying favor with the envirowhackos.

Well, there isn't much way to get them to change their mind, especially since it is actually cheaper for them to make phosphate free detergent (never mind it doesn't work), but you CAN replace the phosphates in your detergent. Just go to the cleaner section of your local hardware store and look for Trisodium Phosphate. Home Depot and Lowes both carry it. Just add about a teaspoon to every load and you will get your dishes clean again. This is the cheapest method.

You can also buy Cascade with phosphates from places that sell commercial grade cleaners. Restockit.com is one place. I am sure there are others if you search.


TOPICS: Food; Science; Society; Weird Stuff
KEYWORDS: dishdetergent; junkscuence; phosphates; trisodiumphosphate; tsp
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-146 next last
To: Blood of Tyrants

We’ve been using TSP (the real stuff) as an additive in our dishwasher and washing machine for about a month now. It makes a huge difference. Our dishwasher, which had begun to accumulate a black (and as I recently discovered, potentially dangerous) mold is now spotless. The dishes squeak again when you rub your fingers on them, and our white towels are once again, white.


51 posted on 06/26/2011 1:30:10 PM PDT by andy58-in-nh (America does not need to be organized: it needs to be liberated.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants
I stayed in a hotel that charged $200 a night in DC. For the “environment” they didn't change out the sheets daily unless you request it. “For the environment.” lol

These environmental scams are only possible because you have people too ignorant to know better, lacking any REAL critical thinking skills and devoid of morals, looking for a purpose to latch onto to make a difference. Environmentalism and all the scams surrounding it is how the liberal/secularist tithes.

52 posted on 06/26/2011 1:30:46 PM PDT by Red6
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants

TSP isn’t the best, as it can leave a residue. The stuff for detergent is Sodium Tripolyphosphate (STPP). It can be ourchased from a number of suppliers like soapgoods.com or http://www.chemistrystore.com/cart.cgi?group=100513&child=100614


53 posted on 06/26/2011 1:31:57 PM PDT by USMCPOP (Father of LCpl. Karl Linn, KIA 1/26/2005 Al Haqlaniyah, Iraq)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: svcw; Species8472

Caustic soda is sodium hydroxide (NaOH), aka lye.

I wouldn’t add it to a clothes washer, and maybe not to a dishwasher. The reason it prevents film on glass in a dishwasher is because in hot water it attacks the silica and changes it to sodium silicate, which is water soluble. In other words, it actually dissolves a little of the glass each time by reacting with it. (It prevents film from building up on a substrate by removing the top layer of the substrate). The dissolution won’t occur perfectly evenly over time, so if used too aggressively the glass eventually will gain a slightly rough texture and after a long enough time it will have a slightly frosted appearance that is permanent. Sodium hydroxide does this even to the high grade borosilicate glass used in chemistry laboratories.

As for the clothes, sodium hydroxide will also break most natural fibers down over time via alkaline hydrolysis. If you’ve ever had a cotton shirt develop a hole in it over time from bleaching, the weakening of the fibers that leads to the holes isn’t caused by the sodium hypochlorite (which releases chlorine) in the bleach so much as from the sodium hydroxide added to bleach to stabilize the hypochlorite.

So yes, caustic soda is good for keeping glass looking good in the short term, and excellent for getting grease and oil out of clothes, but it damages both in the long term. It matters less with the glass because it removes very, very little each cycle, but it’ll damage natural fabrics pretty reliably in the long term.


54 posted on 06/26/2011 1:33:46 PM PDT by verum ago (A liberal's mind is like a single action revolver with a bobbed hammer)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: verum ago

Oh, my goodness. Do you know my husband? ;-) He said almost the same thing, but as an engineer he also drew pictures and wrote formulas.


55 posted on 06/26/2011 1:37:27 PM PDT by svcw (Non forgiveness is like holding a hot coal thinking the other person will be blistered)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 54 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants
Where do I go to get dish washing liquid with phosphates in it?

All the crap I find in the store is PF.

Garde la Foi, mes amis! Nous nous sommes les sauveurs de la République! Maintenant et Toujours!
(Keep the Faith, my friends! We are the saviors of the Republic! Now and Forever!)

LonePalm, le Républicain du verre cassé (The Broken Glass Republican)

56 posted on 06/26/2011 1:37:27 PM PDT by LonePalm (Commander and Chef)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: USMCPOP

Are you using it? If so how much for laundry and dishwasher? Shipping is a killer for me but other than that it’s not that much more than TSP. I’m trying to find it local.

I notice it’s food grade and very non-toxic too.


57 posted on 06/26/2011 1:42:23 PM PDT by Free Vulcan (Vote Republican! You can vote Democrat when you're dead.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 53 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants
Mix the TSP right in your dishwasher detergent. You can get it at Home Depot in the paint department.

Another good additive is Lemi-Shine. Get it at Von's or Walmart. Finally, occasionally I toss a couple of cups of plain white vinegar in the bottom of the dishwasher, and a half-cup of CLR.

If I didn't do all of this my dishes and glasses would be white, cloudy, and gross. I prefer CLEAN dishes.

58 posted on 06/26/2011 1:44:34 PM PDT by truthkeeper (Vote Against Barack Obama in 2012!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants

I tried TSP and it was ok. Then I read you could put 1/2 cup vinegar + 1/2 cup water in a coffee mug in the back corner and run it as you always do. It takes the soap film off and makes the glassware sparkle. Even easier to set up.


59 posted on 06/26/2011 1:46:07 PM PDT by bboop (Stealth Tutor)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: LonePalm

Try places that sell janitorial supplies.


60 posted on 06/26/2011 1:49:00 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Islam is the religion of Satan and Mohammed was his minion.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 56 | View Replies]

To: truthkeeper

I’ve used CLR, too. We have a lot of limestone around here.


61 posted on 06/26/2011 1:51:51 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Islam is the religion of Satan and Mohammed was his minion.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 58 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants

The poor dish-washing performance also uses more energy and water. When Cascade made their complete dishwasher soap with the phosphate, we very rarely prewashed our dishes. My son was so lazy about it he threw dishes in with corn and mashed potatoes stuck to the plates. Even so, they came out spotless. Now we have to prewash which uses more hot water and more energy. Chalk one more up for the environweenies. To them I give the all time Anthony Wiener Award.


62 posted on 06/26/2011 1:52:54 PM PDT by jonrick46 (2012 can't come soon enough.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Free Vulcan

I’m not using it. I had run across some forums discussing various homemade detergents.


63 posted on 06/26/2011 1:54:51 PM PDT by USMCPOP (Father of LCpl. Karl Linn, KIA 1/26/2005 Al Haqlaniyah, Iraq)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 57 | View Replies]

To: Free Vulcan

More STPP info:

http://ths.gardenweb.com/faq/lists/laundry/2003052601018823.html


64 posted on 06/26/2011 1:56:46 PM PDT by USMCPOP (Father of LCpl. Karl Linn, KIA 1/26/2005 Al Haqlaniyah, Iraq)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 57 | View Replies]

To: Free Vulcan

I was wondering why my glasses were looking so bad. Would vinegar or borax do the same thing as TSP?


65 posted on 06/26/2011 1:58:06 PM PDT by MsLady (Be the kind of woman that when you get up in the morning, the devil says, "Oh crap, she's UP !!")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: MsLady

I haven’t tried either in the dishwasher. I have used borax in the laundry and it does well though not as good as TSP.


66 posted on 06/26/2011 2:02:27 PM PDT by Free Vulcan (Vote Republican! You can vote Democrat when you're dead.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 65 | View Replies]

To: EQAndyBuzz
Might just be easier to beat an enviro whacko

It would most certainly be more gratifying !

67 posted on 06/26/2011 2:03:35 PM PDT by tomkat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants

Home Depot and Lowes both carry it.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Not our Lowes or Home Depot! We order ours from an Internet company. ( Sorry...my husband gets it and I don’t know the company name. )


68 posted on 06/26/2011 2:05:54 PM PDT by wintertime
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants

I use about 1 tablespoon in with my clothes.
Be careful it may bleach dark colors.


69 posted on 06/26/2011 2:06:29 PM PDT by deadsteve (TSP)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Free Vulcan

Get Sodium Tripolyphosphate at The Chemical Store - I put in one Electrosol tab and fill the rest of the cup with it in my dishwasher. Works like a charm. And a small amount in the washing machine - about 2-3 tablespoons does it. TSP is not so good.


70 posted on 06/26/2011 2:09:12 PM PDT by flyingtabby (I am the Conservative your Hippie Friends Warned you About..........)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants

I thought my old dishwasher was needing repaired or replaced, lol. Thanks for the tip. (Geez, I wish the government would butt out of my household — cleaning products, paint, toilets, bathtubs, lightbulbs, insecticides...GRRRRR!)


71 posted on 06/26/2011 2:12:11 PM PDT by TennesseeGirl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants

You want STPP not TSP - Sodium tripolyphosphate. From the Chemical Store, online. TSP is NOT as effective and can be damaging. Interestingly I was called by Fox News a few months ago about this because I had posted on their site about it. However, they never ran the story. They had been asking in a poll about it and I posted the answer to use STPP and they told me many others are doing the same. The real kicker is that hotels and restaurants are REQUIRED to use phosphates and they are far bigger users of the detergents than all households combined. Damn this government to HELL! And DAMN the EPA!!!


72 posted on 06/26/2011 2:12:56 PM PDT by flyingtabby (I am the Conservative your Hippie Friends Warned you About..........)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SAJ

Customers better smile for the camera when they pick up lye at the big chains. Since all transactions at the cash registers are filmed, all Big Bro has to do is ask the stores for the copies. Lye is an ingredient used in making meth. God forbid you have allergies and need a decongestant. :)


73 posted on 06/26/2011 2:21:12 PM PDT by TennesseeGirl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: All; Blood of Tyrants

One thing I’ve started doing is putting a squirt of Palmolive had dish soap in the closed door section of the dishwasher, as well as the Cascade/Finish/whatever powder, and it seems to work just fine, phosphates or no.


74 posted on 06/26/2011 2:24:58 PM PDT by Ro_Thunder (I sure hope there is a New Morning in America soon. All this hope and change is leaving me depressed)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MsLady
I have used about 1/2 cup vinegar in the final rinse, and the glassware all comes out looking great. We have hard water, and the new dish washing detergents were all leaving a film.

I have never tried Borax in the dish washer. 20 mule team borax is a wonderful cleaner and deodorizer, so I make a laundry detergent using borax and washing soda, granny's lye soap or castile soap.

20 mule team borax is made in the USA. My castile soap is made in Kentucky, lye soap is made locally. Where ever possible I try to support USA products.

75 posted on 06/26/2011 2:38:56 PM PDT by greeneyes (Moderation in defense of your country is NO virtue. Let Freedom Ring.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 65 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants
The phosphates in detergent do NOT cause the algae to bloom because the algae can't break down the trisodium phosphates.

They don't need to break down an orthophosphate like trisodium phosphate. The basic phosphorus containing unit in every living thing is orthophosphate (PO43-). Trisodium phosphate dissolves to directly give the orthophosphate anion.

I think you're thinking of sodium tripolyphosphate (also called sodium triphosphate sometimes). I don't know if algae can break it down directly, but they don't need to. It breaks down on its own over a matter of hours in solution.

Both trisodium phosphate and sodium triphosphate really do encourage algal growth where phosphate is a limiting nutrient because they both result in highly bioavailable phosphate. Please note, however, that I am not endorsing the Greens' stance of banning highly effective phosphate based cleaners from use.

Most of the studies on free phosphate concentration have until recently used methods which overestimate its concentration grossly (we're talking overestimation by entire orders of magnitude). In other words, yeah the stuff can cause problems in sufficient concentration, but the prevalence of such concentrations has historically been vastly overestimated. Of course, since letting the truth get out would damage their arguments and reputations, the Greens have knowingly stuck to outdated information to advance their anti-civilization/progress agenda. Never underestimate their ability to distort the truth or lie convincingly. Bastards.
76 posted on 06/26/2011 2:39:26 PM PDT by verum ago (A liberal's mind is like a single action revolver with a bobbed hammer)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TennesseeGirl
Well, that's rather a non-starter. Sodium hydroxide is FAR easier to produce in (even a minimalist) lab than is methedrine (or methamphetamine, if you prefer). All you need is slaked lime and soda ash, or even wood ash will do if purity of the final product is not an issue.

Thus, if some bozo is going to make methedrine, in theory he should have no trouble whatever making sodium hydroxide as a precursor. Filming purchasors of NaOH in order to prevent the manufacture of methedrine must be one of the grossest examples of wasting time and money.

Note to would-be manufacturers of NaOH: prefer making it outdoors, absent a top-quality ventilation system, and definitely be well-masked and -gloved. And make sure you combine the reagents DOWNwind from yourself. Wouldn't want to cough up a lung, now would we?

In short, only a competent chemist should try making NaOH; it's easily done, but one MUST know what one is about or else suffer severe physical damage. If someone isn't up to snuff here, buying NaOH will hold similar risks. You could ask the Drano people for a real-life, and very expensive, example of this.

77 posted on 06/26/2011 2:39:54 PM PDT by SAJ (Zerobama -- a phony and a prick, therefore a dildo)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 73 | View Replies]

To: svcw

lol I’d give you the formulas and diagrams but it’s hard to draw freehand in FR’s posting system ;)


78 posted on 06/26/2011 2:41:18 PM PDT by verum ago (A liberal's mind is like a single action revolver with a bobbed hammer)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 55 | View Replies]

To: MsLady

I don’t think so, it won’t touch that, get thee some STPP. The glasswear was horrid, thought something was wrong with the dishwasher.

It came out sparkly clear in just one washadding a heaping teaspoon of STPP. Works great in the laundry too.

TSP works too, but prefer STPP. Both products will degrade over time and exposure to air. A 15 pound container of STPP costs about $50 shipped, but should last a year or so.


79 posted on 06/26/2011 2:42:51 PM PDT by Freedom4US
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 65 | View Replies]

To: verum ago

Had to have the pump replaced in our 15 year old dishwasher recently. We asked the fellow who was installing the pump his opinion on getting dishes clean. His recommendation was to use granular dishwasher detergent in one of the “holders” and granular Lemi-Shine in the other one. We already use the Cascade with phosphates, and this half and half mix works very well.


80 posted on 06/26/2011 2:47:48 PM PDT by radioone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 76 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants

Ping


81 posted on 06/26/2011 3:13:34 PM PDT by tall_tex
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: radioone

Any idea what’s in the lemi-shine, besides lemon oil? Their MSDS lists the ingredients as ‘proprietary.’ I’m guessing citric or lactic acid, more likely the former.


82 posted on 06/26/2011 3:14:28 PM PDT by verum ago (A liberal's mind is like a single action revolver with a bobbed hammer)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 80 | View Replies]

To: Species8472
Beware that the big box hardware stores are now selling "phosphate free" TSP. Read the box carefully!

How can they even call it TSP when there's no "P" in it?

It's tri sodium without the "P".

83 posted on 06/26/2011 3:43:40 PM PDT by Graybeard58
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: greeneyes

Borax is also good for termite control.


84 posted on 06/26/2011 3:45:42 PM PDT by fred42 ("Get your facts first, then you can distort 'em as much as you need." - Mark Twain)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 75 | View Replies]

To: OldMissileer

My front loader takes liquid detergent only. Does TSP come in a liquid form? If not, I suppose I could just put the powder directly on the clothes at the start.


85 posted on 06/26/2011 3:47:59 PM PDT by Graybeard58
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: fred42
Someone told me it was good for ants so I tried it yesterday. The trail of ants walking across the driveway kept right on truckin’.
86 posted on 06/26/2011 3:48:44 PM PDT by Protect the Bill of Rights
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 84 | View Replies]

To: fred42

Good to know. Thanks.


87 posted on 06/26/2011 3:50:34 PM PDT by greeneyes (Moderation in defense of your country is NO virtue. Let Freedom Ring.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 84 | View Replies]

To: Free Vulcan
I've noticed Menards only carries the phos free stuff.

Saved me a trip with that tip. Menard's is where I usually buy those type items.

88 posted on 06/26/2011 3:51:13 PM PDT by Graybeard58
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: svcw; Free Vulcan

For the dishwasher, try and keep it around a quarter tsp....we’ve been doing that for about two months now and our old cheap silverware sparkles like new - unbelievable.


89 posted on 06/26/2011 3:51:25 PM PDT by ErnBatavia (It's not the Obama Administration....it's the "Obama Regime".)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants

bttt


90 posted on 06/26/2011 4:05:48 PM PDT by ChildOfThe60s ( If you can remember the 60s....you weren't really there)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: reg45

“Make certain that it is REAL tri-sodium phosphate, not the phosphorus free substitute.”

Hee Sodium free sodium phosphate (the name Tri-sodium phosphate is commonly used but wrong according to current chemical nomenclature) What a nation of self-deluded mnorons we’ve become.

Na3PO4 without the P is not Sodium phosphate. What a crock for a manufacturer to say there is such an animal.

not insulting the poster agreeing with him.


91 posted on 06/26/2011 4:11:07 PM PDT by TFMcGuire (Liberalism Is Hatred)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: ErnBatavia

Thanks. I bought a box for my mom, I’ll tell her to back off on the amount.


92 posted on 06/26/2011 4:19:58 PM PDT by Free Vulcan (Vote Republican! You can vote Democrat when you're dead.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 89 | View Replies]

To: Free Vulcan

Be very careful with the caustic soda (sodium hydroxide).

I work with the stuff. Get a few crystals on your skin and it will blister you if not washed off immediately. Be especially careful to not get it in your eyes!


93 posted on 06/26/2011 4:21:25 PM PDT by darth
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: SAJ

Sodium Hydroxide is what is in Drano - definitely dangerous.


94 posted on 06/26/2011 4:22:18 PM PDT by Archer24 (Get a life - I've had two and am lookingfor more.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: Protect the Bill of Rights

Boric acid is used in some ROACH killers.


95 posted on 06/26/2011 4:25:30 PM PDT by ataDude (Its like 1933, mixed with the Carter 70s, plus the books 1984 and Animal Farm, all at the same time.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 86 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants

Bump, Thanks


96 posted on 06/26/2011 4:33:18 PM PDT by CPT Clay (Pick up your weapon and follow me.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Freedom4US

What is STPP????


97 posted on 06/26/2011 4:33:51 PM PDT by MsLady (Be the kind of woman that when you get up in the morning, the devil says, "Oh crap, she's UP !!")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 79 | View Replies]

To: greeneyes

I’ll have to try that. Right now I use arm and hammer and add bleach when I do my sheets and towels.


98 posted on 06/26/2011 4:36:57 PM PDT by MsLady (Be the kind of woman that when you get up in the morning, the devil says, "Oh crap, she's UP !!")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 75 | View Replies]

To: Free Vulcan

It says it is poisonous. Can it be used in hand dishwashing soap?


99 posted on 06/26/2011 4:53:00 PM PDT by Chickensoup (The right to bear arms is proved to prevent government genocide. Protect yourself!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: All
This article has it all laid out as to how this all happened.
The usual plot line. Polititians, junk science directly contradicted by waste water management engineers, non profits, and idiotic “journalism”.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/another-triumph-greens_536862.html?page=1

I have found that for dishes the TSP works the very best with liquid cascade. The laundry has also never been cleaner.

100 posted on 06/26/2011 4:53:09 PM PDT by toddly
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-146 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson