Why men are withdrawing from courtship.

Dalrock ^ | Dalrock

[ClaytonP]

One of the more common refrains in the “Where have all of the good men gone!” lament is men’s increasing unwillingness to court women the way women expect to be courted. This is almost always framed as either a great mystery or a case of weak men screwing up feminism (or both).

Examples of this concern abound, from Aunt Haley’s last three posts, to the divorced single mother who found out men weren’t willing to spend very much to court her, to the woman in Vox’s recent post lamenting that her 59 year old friend was only offered half a sandwich by a recent date. Commenter Tom H weighed in with the same concern the other day about his two 30ish career women daughters who struggle to find men who will date them without “pushing for sex”.

How did we get here?

To better understand why men are withdrawing from courtship we need to consider the roles men and women play in the process and how the sexual revolution has impacted the landscape. Men foot the searching costs in the marriage and sexual marketplace (MMP & SMP). This means bearing most of the risk of rejection and expending the bulk of the resources to facilitate the process of meeting and getting to know one another. As the ones who bear the costs of courtship, men have a strong incentive to minimize the number of women they court and the overall duration of time spent in the process. However, as the consumers of courtship, women have an incentive to draw the process out as long as possible and to receive courtship from as many men as possible.

Over the last few decades the expectation that men bear the bulk of the costs and risks of courtship has remained relatively constant, but the time period women expect to be courted has expanded dramatically.

As recently as 1980, the median age of marriage for women in the US was 22. By 2011 this was 26.5, but this signifigantly understates the nature of the change since it doesn’t account for the rapidly expanding group of 30 something women who haven’t been able to marry. A full 25% of all US White 30-34 year old women have yet to marry, and these aging would be brides are the loudest voices complaining about the lack of courtship.

The problem with women’s complaints about courtship is easier to understand if you consider the needs of the man. He needs to manage risk vs reward. When courting, there are two fundamental risks. These are the risk of wasting resources on the wrong women, and the risk of rejection harming the man’s reputation/MMV.

Risk of wasting resources on the wrong women.

There are three subcategories of resource risk:

1. Expending courtship resources on women not interested in marriage (in general).
2. Expending courtship resources on women who are interested in marriage, but not interested in marrying him (aiming too high).
3. Risk of aiming too low.

Risk of rejection harming the man’s reputation/MMV.

This basic risk can in turn be broken down into two subcategories:

1. Risk of nuclear rejection.
2. Cumulative risk of rejection.

For the ladies reading who might be offended at this, I’ll frame it differently. Picture your ideal husband. Do you want him to propose to you after having been rejected by numerous other women? Of course not. You don’t want to feel like the consolation prize, and you don’t wan’t to marry a man whom other women are known to have rejected. In order to avoid this, the man you ultimately marry must be careful with how freely he expresses interest in women who aren’t signaling an interest in him.

On the question of wasting resources, do you want your future husband to divide his courtship resources between you and many other women? Or do you want all of his available courtship investment to be devoted solely to you?

What does a woman’s age have to do with courtship?

For a man who is managing the risks of courtship outlined above, the age of a woman is very important. The older a woman is, the more likely it is that she is very picky and/or not seriously looking for a husband. Older women also are less attractive from a courtship perspective because they have used up more of their most attractive/fertile years, and while their attractiveness for marriage has declined their expectations for courtship have only increased. In short, the older a woman gets the worse a bet she becomes (on average) when it comes to courting her.

There is another impact of women increasing the time period they expect courtship, and this is on men’s willingness to court younger women. Consider the 25% of current early thirties White women who still haven’t married; unless they are terminally unattractive an awful lot of courtship has almost certainly been wasted on them. They aren’t just bad bets for courtship today, but (in retrospect) they clearly were bad bets for courtship for the last 15 years. Even more telling, just shy of half of all late twenties White women have never married, which means five years ago 50% of early twenties White women were a complete and total waste of traditional courtship risk and resources. Given the direction of the trends over the last five years, the risk is even higher today.

Put simply, the extended delay of marriage by women has placed marriage minded men in a dilemma; older women are (generally speaking) known bad bets for courtship, but half of early twenties women are also poor bets for courtship. And this is before the man in question starts to consider which of the good bets for courtship (in general) would be a good bet for him personally to court.

It is also worth noting that it isn’t just in delaying marriage that women are extending the period of expected courtship. Women are also driving our divorce revolution, and even with a track record of being the worst possible courtship risk (the kind who marries and then gets unhaaaapy) they still expect to be courted all over again.

The logical adjustment by men.

There are only two logical ways men can respond to women’s extension of courtship. The first logical choice is to recognize that these women are debasing marriage, and decide to “court” for sex and not marriage. For most late teens and early twenties women, this is the only form of courtship which makes sense. This is true in even higher percentages for women in their late twenties or higher. For women looking to soak up courtship in today’s hookup culture there is another serious problem; when courting for sex it is in a man’s best interest to greatly limit the amount of resources he spends before getting sex from a woman. This allows him to cast a wide net while keeping his expenditures down. Ironically, as we have learned from Game a man’s chances of receiving sex from a woman are actually higher when practicing the skittles method of courtship (crass site warning).

But while “courting” for sex is a logical choice, it is not a moral choice, and we still do see men courting for marriage. For these men, having a fairly low age cutoff makes a great deal of sense. A woman in her late twenties who claims to be serious about traditional marriage is far less believable and attractive than a woman who indicates the same thing in her late teens or early twenties. Admittedly few women in their early twenties are believably signaling an interest in marrying soon, but this is a plus when trying to minimize spreading courtship resources around too freely. There are of course a number of other markers a man should consider when determining if a woman is a good bet for marriage, which will narrow the field down further. Making things worse for women looking to soak up “traditional” courtship, the logical strategy for traditional courtship isn’t that different than the strategy for men courting for sex; logically speaking, traditional men should keep courtship expenditure to a minimum until a woman has indicated a fairly strong interest in marrying him. Given the large numbers of women not actually interested in marrying at any given time and the opportunity cost of focusing on a non serious candidate, traditional men will do best to greatly limit their courtship efforts and expenditure until around the time of an engagement, and if they are smart they will also insist on keeping the length of the engagement as short as logistically possible.

[krunkygirl]

i think you’re putting too much
thought, and math, into
it...

[Dr. Sivana]

A woman in her late twenties who claims to be serious about traditional marriage is far less believable and attractive than a woman who indicates the same thing in her late teens or early twenties.

This depends. The way I like to put it, there must be a story. (Men marrying in their late thirties and older ought to have a story, too.)

Stories that work (from other people's real life, not mine):

I was in a convent and decided not to take final vows.
I went to college, was engaged after graduation, got strung along from a guy who ultimately wasn't interested in marriage.

I was well on my way to a doctorate, but decided to cut studies short because that was not the life I wanted to live.
My mother/father was suffering from a high maintenance illness, and I was taking care of them.
I used to have different goals but came to believe in/take seriously (name traditional western religion).

etc. etc.

[Dr. Sivana]

lol just try and find a 20 something virgin

Not hard. A friend of mine married a woman who was 30 years old who had never even romantically kissed a fellow. She was in a convent for seven or eight years and decided against final vows.

[Tired of Taxes]

You have it right, Marie. I have no daughters, only sons. I’ve tried to raise them to be marriage-minded. (I think their dad leaving only reinforced those teachings.) The oldest are in their teens, but I hope they continue to recognize the important of marriage and faithfulness into adulthood. I HOPE.

But, even if they do, will they meet young women who share their thinking on the importance of commitment in marriage? If my own observations are any indication, there aren’t many people of any age these days who believe in marriage and commitment.

[southern rock]

Those are good tips, but after a certain age, eliminating single mothers and co-workers doesn’t leave you with much. Plus, chicks NEVER stand around in clubs/bars without girlfriends around them so that is ridiculous. Otherwise he is spot on pretty much.

[Farmer Dean]

A bath tub is no place to be rebuilding a transmission.The dining room table is much better.

[catnipman]

“If they wanted to buy things to encourage courting, it would be golf clubs.”

Personally, I think if women wanted to buy things to encourage men to court them, they’d buy Houston Texans cheerleader uniforms.

[Tired of Taxes]

Indeed. I couldn’t agree more with that post.

[Rides_A_Red_Horse]

There’s a reason why so many military guys go overseas single and come back married.

[fabian]

You actually expressed what women do not want..good women...a man looking to please his woman. A strong moral character that is willing to say no and disagree with a woman or anyone, is what a woman needs. Whether she wants it could be immediate or later, time in dating tells.

[Lurker]

Being single and lonely sucks. Being married and lonely sucks worse. Fortunately I have a wonderful woman in my life. I am very, very fortunate.

[M Kehoe]

Why men are withdrawing from courtship.

Aren't you supposed to withdraw from courtship when you get married?

Just askin'.

5.56mm

[Rides_A_Red_Horse]

Note: Men wanted to date (and marry) younger women before feminism, too. ;-) Older men want to date younger women because they find them more physically attractive. Women are valued for their attractiveness. Men are valued for security and stability. (And I say that as an “older” woman.)

---

There have been times I’ve rejected younger women who were “pretty” but still as dumb as a “pretty box of rocks” who also expressed themselves in ways that would disgust a sailor. I’ve also dated older women who were pretty both inside and out.

[Col Freeper]

U mean Sandra "The Love Machine" Fluke?

[catnipman]

“the two most important words in the English language are Pre Nup.”

Indeed. Marriage by the state is fundamentally a default property contract that MASSIVELY favors the female, whether their or children involved or not.

My first wife cleaned me out. Emptied the bank accounts one day, loaded up a truck in a blizzard with EVERYTHING in the house and moved across the continent in the dead of night. No prenup that time.

After that, it was prenup-city for me. Already saved my bacon once, and if things go sour again, I expect to at least still have some bacon left afterwards.

(BTW, I have a friend who joked that he knew it was going to cost him a house every time he got married.)

“Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me”

[dragnet2]

All the good men are living at home with ma and pa, due to working for part time 1990s wages...They’re afraid of society where the gold digging females financially gang bang them in corrupt government courts.

It’s much better they stay single and watch out for themselves. Besides, it takes good paying, secure jobs to get married, have families, deliver babies, buy homes etc. Not happening in today’s America.

[Rides_A_Red_Horse]

If you want commitment, and after six months she isn't talking about the future, then it's time to move on. If, after a year, you are not both sure enough to be willing to set a date, then it's time to move on.

---

There's one simple truth I learned in my life. Nothing makes a man more attractive to a woman than another woman's interest.

During one of the many rough patches between me and my exwife she had been really taking me for granted and was beyond being just “cold.” We were at a store in the mall when a young lady friend/work colleague saw me and greeted me with a brief hug. That evening my “exwife to be” became a LOT friendlier.

Eventually, I got sick of head games, mental abuse and undeserved resentment so I got off the emotional roller coaster. That was the best decision I ever made.

[Rides_A_Red_Horse]

What you spend for anything in the area of looking good is spent on YOU. You spend nothing on the man himself. You don’t buy him dinner, you don’t spring for the many miscellaneous gifts and benefits that are commonly bestowed on you.

---

When I was back out on the dating scene (hated it) I had a few very desperate women try to buy me gifts. Even with a beautiful woman, desperation is a big turn off.

[ansel12]

Aside from the normal use of bathing, I thought the most common extra use for bathtubs by men, was for washing dishes, when the task is just too big for the kitchen sink.

So far, I'm the only freeper I know, who stores one of these in his bedroom.

[Kenton]

One of the more common refrains in the “Where have all of the good men gone!” lament is men’s increasing unwillingness to court women the way women expect to be courted.

Yeah, this was always the sad refrain of the pinch-faced 30-something feminists at the place I used to work.

One day, upon hearing the “Where have all of the good men gone!” lament coming from one of a gaggle of women in the cubicle adjoining mine, I popped up my head and replied, "why Amy, all the good men are already married to all the good women..."

The ladies womyn did not take that one very well...