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The Basic Non Evolution of Modern Man

Posted on 12/25/2010 4:00:25 AM PST by wendy1946

No normal science theory is ever defended the way evolution is. What IS defended in that sort of manner are lifestyles, tenures, entrenched positions, and careers which have been built pyramid-style atop a base row which is sitting on quicksand. The people sitting ten or eleven rows of stones up don't like being told that the whole thing is unworkable.

What most people are unaware of is that the whole theory of evolution has been overwhelmingly refuted a number of times and via a number of totally unrelated arguments to such an extent that ANY normal science theory under the same circumstances would have been rejected and thrown out literally decades ago.

The first such disproof and the one which rightfully should have ended the debate involved fruit flies. Fruit flies breed new generations every other day so that running any sort of a decades-long experiment with fruit flies will involve more generations of them than there have ever been of anything even remotely resembling humans on our planet. Those flies were subjected to everything in the world known to cause mutations and the mutants were recombined every possible way; all they ever got were sterile freaks, and fruit flies. Several prominent scientists publicly denounced evolution at that point in time including the famous case of Richard Goldschmidt.

The failure was due to the fact that our entire living world is driven by information and the only information there ever was in the picture was that for a fruit fly. When the DNA/RNA information scheme was discovered, even if the fruit fly thing had never happened, evolution should have been discarded on the spot. But GIVEN the fact of the fruit fly experiments, somebody HAD to have thought to himself "Hey, THAT'S THE REASON THE FRUIT FLY EXPERIMENTS FAILED!!!!!!"

The DNA/RNA system is an information code just like C#, Java, or C++. Information codes do not just sort of happen or appear amongst inanimate matter for no particular reason. In other words, there is no way in the world anybody should be believing in evolution 40 years after the discovery of DNA and, again, that's just one overwhelming disproof amongst a number of such. Again no legitimate science theory would ever survive such a history.

There is the question of the probabilistic odds against any sort of life forming from inanimate matter via any random sequence of events; the junk science reports we now read about "string" theory and "multiple universes" is basically motivated by a recognition of what the odds are against evolution in the one universe we actually have any evidence for.

And then there is the Haldane dilemma, which amounts to an understanding of the time spans which would be needed to spread ANY genetic change through any group of creatures. A very simple version of the thing is all most intelligent people should need:

Imagine a population of 100,000 apes or "proto-humans" ten million years ago which are all genetically alike other than for two with a "beneficial mutation". Imagine also that this population has the human or proto-human generation cycle time of roughly 20 years.

Imagine that the beneficial mutation in question is so good, that all 99,998 other die out immediately (from jealousy), and that the pair with the beneficial mutation has 100,000 kids and thus replenishes the herd.

Imagine that this process goes on like that for ten million years, which is more than anybody claims is involved in "human evolution". The max number of such "beneficial mutations" which could thus be substituted into the herd would be ten million divided by twenty, or 500,000 point mutations which, Walter Remine notes, is about 1/100 of one percent of the human genome, and a miniscule fraction of the 2 to 3 percent that separates us from chimpanzees, or the half of that which separates us from neanderthals.

That basically says that even given a rate of evolutionary development which is fabulously beyond anything which is possible in the real world, starting from apes, in ten million years the best you could possibly hope for would be an ape with a slightly shorter tail.

People who have carried out the math for real-world rates of substitution come up with it taking quadrillions of years for our present living world to have evolved in any fashion even if that were possible, which it isn't.

So evolution needs quadrillions of years... how much time do they (evolutionites) actually have? A very big part of the answer has been coming in lately in the form of blood, blood vessels, and raw meat turning up in dinosaur remains:

In other words, Midrashic sources and Amerind oral traditions are basically correct in describing human interaction with dinosaurs just a few thousand years ago (there is no way raw meat and blood can survive for millions of years) and the thing we've heard all our lives about dinosaurs dying out all our lives is a bunch of BS.

A theory which needs quadrillions of years and only has a few thousand is basically FUBAR; no reasonably well educated person should ever buy into it.


What about humans, hominids such as the Neanderthal, and the stories we keep seeing in the news about some new human ancestor of the year which is supposedly going to save evolutionism, and what about the 30,000 and 200,000 year time frames involved in those stories?

In order to be descended from something via any process resembling evolution, at some point, you have to be able to interbreed with the something. Thus the curious total lack of any real evidence of modern man ever interbreeding with Neanderthals was always viewed as a big mystery particularly since there was evidence of the two groups living in close proximity for long periods. James Shreeve described the problem in an article published in Discover magazine in the mid 90s:

"Humans love to mate. They mate all the time, by night and by day, through all the phases of the female’s reproductive cycle. Given the opportunity, humans throughout the world will mate with any other human. The barriers between races and cultures, so cruelly evident in other respects, melt away when sex is at stake. Cortés began the systematic annihilation of the Aztec people--but that did not stop him from taking an Aztec princess for his wife. Blacks have been treated with contempt by whites in America since they were first forced into slavery, but some 20 percent of the genes in a typical African American are white. Consider James Cook’s voyages in the Pacific in the eighteenth century. Cook’s men would come to some distant land, and lining the shore were all these very bizarre-looking human beings with spears, long jaws, browridges, archeologist Clive Gamble of Southampton University in England told me. God, how odd it must have seemed to them. But that didn’t stop the Cook crew from making a lot of little Cooklets.

Project this universal human behavior back into the Middle Paleolithic. When Neanderthals and modern humans came into contact in the Levant, they would have interbred, no matter how strange they might initially have seemed to each other. If their cohabitation stretched over tens of thousands of years, the fossils should show a convergence through time toward a single morphological pattern, or at least some swapping of traits back and forth.

But the evidence just isn’t there, not if the TL and ESR dates are correct. Instead the Neanderthals stay staunchly themselves. In fact, according to some recent ESR dates, the least Neanderthalish among them is also the oldest. The full Neanderthal pattern is carved deep at the Kebara cave, around 60,000 years ago. The moderns, meanwhile, arrive very early at Qafzeh and Skhul and never lose their modern aspect. Certainly, it is possible that at any moment new fossils will be revealed that conclusively demonstrate the emergence of a Neandermod lineage. From the evidence in hand, however, the most likely conclusion is that Neanderthals and modern humans were not interbreeding in the Levant..."

And then in the late 1990s results of DNA studies of Neanderthal remains began to come in and cleared up the mystery:

"He said his team ran four separate tests for authenticity - checking whether other amino acids had survived, making sure the DNA sequences they found did not exist in modern humans, making sure the DNA could be replicated in their own lab and then getting other labs to duplicate their results. Comparisons with the DNA of modern humans and of apes showed the Neanderthal was about halfway between a modern human and a chimpanzee."

That's right: the Neanderthal was basically an advanced ape whose DNA was almost exactly halfway between ours and that of a chimpanzee, and we could no more interbreed with Neanderthals than we could with horses. Even the prestigeious PlosBiology system gave up on the idea (No Evidence of Neandertal mtDNA Contribution to Early Modern Humans).

Clearly that should have been the end of any talk about modern humans having evolved from hominids since all other hominids were significantly FURTHER removed from us THAN the neanderthal. Nonetheless evolutionites go on talking about a "common ancestor(TM) for both ourselves and Neanderthals, 5000,000 years back. That of course is idiotic; it's as if somebody had discovered some reason why dogs could not be descended from wolves, and the evolutionites were to claim that therefore they (dogs) must be descended directly from fish.


But what about the time frames? We've seen that the time frmes we read about for dinosaurs are totally FUBAR, what about the 50,000 and 200,000 and 500,000 year time spans you read about for supposed human ancestors? Do evolutionites have the sort of time they'd need to even be talking about hominid/human evolution?

Gunnar Heinsohn is best/brightest category in European academia and a frequent speaker at NATO gatherings since his population youth bulge theories predict political unrest with near 100% accuracy; he's also a major player in the ongoing efforts to reconstruct Med-basin chronologies. His "Wie Alt ist das Menschengeschlect" describes the problem with the dating schemes typically associated with Neanderthal studies:

Mueller-Karpe, the first name in continental paleoanthropology, wrote thirty years ago on the two strata of homo erectus at Swanscombe/England: "A difference between the tools in the upper and in the lower stratum is not recognizable. (From a geological point of view it is uncertain if between the two strata there passed decades, centuries or millennia.)" (Handbuch der Vorgeschichte, Vol I, Munich 1966, p. 293).

The outstanding scholar never returned to this hint that in reality there may have passed ten years where the textbooks enlist one thousand years. Yet, I tried to follow this thread. I went to the stratigraphies of the Old Stone Age which usually look as follows

modern man (homo sapiens sapiens)

Neanderthal man (homo sapiens neanderthalensis)

Homo erectus (invents fire and is considered the first intelligent man).

In my book "Wie alt ist das Menschengeschlecht?" [How Ancient is Man?], 1996, 2nd edition, I focused for Neanderthal man on his best preserved stratigraphy: Combe Grenal in France. Within 4 m of debris it exhibited 55 strata dated conventionally between -90,000 and -30,000. Roughly one millennium was thus assigned to some 7 cm of debris per stratum. Close scrutiny had revealed that most strata were only used in the summer. Thus, ca. one thousand summers were assigned to each stratum. If, however, the site lay idle in winter and spring one would have expected substratification. Ideally, one would look for one thousand substrata for the one thousand summers. Yet, not even two substrata were discovered in any of the strata. They themselves were the substrata in the 4 m stratigraphy. They, thus, were not good for 60,000 but only for 55 years.

I tested this assumption with the tool count. According to the Binfords' research--done on North American Indians--each tribal adult has at least five tool kits with some eight tools in each of them. At every time 800 tools existed in a band of 20 adults. Assuming that each tool lasted an entire generation (15 female years), Combe Grenals 4,000 generations in 60,000 years should have produced some 3.2 million tools. By going closer to the actual life time of flint tools tens of millions of tools would have to be expected for Combe Grenal. Ony 19,000 (nineteen thousand) remains of tools, however, were found by the excavators.

There seems to be no way out but to cut down the age of Neanderthal man at Combe Grenal from some 60,000 to some 60 years.

I applied the stratigraphical approach to the best caves in Europe for the entire time from Erectus to the Iron Age and reached at the following tentative chronology for intelligent man:

-600 onwards Iron Age
-900 onwards Bronze Age
-1400 beginning of modern man (homo sapiens sapiens)
-1500 beginning of Neanderthal man
between -2000 and -1600 beginning of Erectus.

Since Erectus only left the two poor strata like at Swanscombe or El-Castillo/Spain, he should actually not have lasted longer than Neanderthal-may be one average life expectancy. I will now not go into the mechanism of mutation. All I want to remind you of is the undisputed sequence of interstratification and monostratification in the master stratigraphies. This allows for one solution only: Parents of the former developmental stage of man lived together with their own offspring in the same cave stratum until they died out. They were not massacred as textbooks have it:

monostrat.: only modern man's tools

interstrat.: Neanderthal man's and modern man's tools side by side

monostrat.: only Neanderthal man's tools

interstrat.: Neanderthal man's and Erectus' tools side by side

monotstrat.: only Erectus tools (deepest stratum for intelligent man)

The year figures certainly sound bewildering. Yet, so far nobody came up with any stratigraphy justifiably demanding more time than I tentatively assigned to the age of intelligent man. I always remind my critiques that one millennium is an enormous time span--more than from William the Conqueror to today's Anglo-World. To add a millenium to human history should always go together with sufficient material remains to show for it. I will not even mention the easiness with which scholars add a million years to the history of man until they made Lucy 4 million years old. The time-span-madness is the last residue of Darwinism.

Heinsohn is not putting an exact age on the Neanderthal die-out; what he IS stating is that there is no legitimate interpretation of existing evidence which would indicate that they died out any more than four or five thousand years ago and that is basically consistent with the thing about raw dinosaur meat.

That of course is nowhere remotely close to the time frames which any sort of an evolutionary scheme of modern man from hominids would require. We are left with three basic choices:


Those are your three basic choices and none of them involve evolution. Moreover the second and third choices merely amount to kicking the can a block or two down the road as far as how anything like modern man ever came into existence anywhere in the universe at all since the the same mathematical and probabilistic laws which prevent macroevolution on this planet would hold true anywhere else. The 17B years which supposedly intervene since the "Big Bang(TM)" wouldn't be enough for modern man to evolve in the universe even if that were possible which it isn't, and even if the Big Bang idea itself weren't just another bunch of BS like evolution, which it is.


TOPICS: Education; Religion; Science; Society
KEYWORDS: evolution; hominid; neanderthal; scientism
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1 posted on 12/25/2010 4:00:29 AM PST by wendy1946
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To: wendy1946
Sorry Wendy1946, Neanderthal DNA as well as epigenetic DNA, is virtually identical to your own ~ the differences are less than between you and your neighbors next door.

They are just funny looking people and you should be ashamed of yourself for calling them "apes".

2 posted on 12/25/2010 4:08:57 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

I assume you’re talking about the people you see still driving around in Volvos with Bork Obunga signs on them...


3 posted on 12/25/2010 4:11:47 AM PST by wendy1946
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To: wendy1946

gosh,Wendy, can you expound on the evolution of the angiosperms some time?


4 posted on 12/25/2010 4:19:32 AM PST by gusopol3
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To: wendy1946

http://www.scienceagainstevolution.org


5 posted on 12/25/2010 4:19:49 AM PST by dynoman (Objectivity is the essence of intelligence. - Marylin vos Savant)
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To: wendy1946; Jim Robinson
Sigh! The dark side of FR!

Sometimes I wish Jim Robinson would double the Freepathon to create TWO separate FRs.

FR Modern Science (or FRMS for short)
This would have FReepers who believe in Science. However, we believe in classical science with proof and Q.E.D etc. Thus we Freepers believe in Moon Landings, Evolution, Earth being 4 billion years old etc. However, we believe that AGW is unproven theory etc

FR Biblical Sciences (or FRBS) for short
They would be Freepers who believe in Biblical based sciences.

Whenever a Freeper would then post an article, she/he would be asked if they wanted to post to FRBS or FRMS or both.

In case a Biblical Sciences article was posted to FRMS, the mods could TRANSFER that article (not zot it) to FRBS. Vice verca, if a Modern Science article made it to FRBS, the mods would transfer it to FRMS

This would keep both of us groups happy. We are all economic conservatives over here. Some of us are more modern science types, others are more biblical. Rather than get in flame wars and divide our Conservative movement, how about having two sub-boards?

6 posted on 12/25/2010 4:49:25 AM PST by SoftwareEngineer
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To: SoftwareEngineer
And where would I go? I believe that modern physics and modern chemistry are quite sound, but that evolution and much of geology are crocks. I'm not defending Genesis. I would just agree that Darwinian evolution is nonsense.

ML/NJ

7 posted on 12/25/2010 5:30:54 AM PST by ml/nj
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To: SoftwareEngineer; Religion Moderator

Such a system is already in place and has been tried using the religion moderator’s guidelines, with scientism being classified as a religion and, hence, given religious protection on this forum. If you don’t think scientism is a religion, then why do you use the term “believe in Science”?


8 posted on 12/25/2010 5:48:08 AM PST by Kevmo (Turning the Party over to the so-called moderates wouldn't make any sense at all. ~Ronald Reagan)
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To: wendy1946
Of Evolution...The idea that all living things would not have the same DNA is an absurdity....and that is the wonder of creation itself...

Seen any new creations lately??

9 posted on 12/25/2010 6:04:59 AM PST by Sacajaweau
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To: SoftwareEngineer
FR Modern Science (or FRMS for short) This would have FReepers who believe in Science. However, we believe in classical science with proof and Q.E.D etc. Thus we Freepers believe in Moon Landings, Evolution, Earth being 4 billion years old etc. However, we believe that AGW is unproven theory etc

I agree, but what's ACTUALLY going to happen is all the FRMS Freepers are going to gradually get ZOTed over time.

10 posted on 12/25/2010 6:31:07 AM PST by Strategerist
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To: wendy1946
Given the bewildering morass of dating, artifacts, the astounding size and complexity of the universe, physics, chemistry, and biology, I think that if the truth of the matter of human origins were revealed tomorrow, both the evolutionists and the creationists would be in shock with amazement...

Back in the 50s scientists claimed that all the basic information was known and it was just a matter of filling it the details... and that perception quickly dissipated. Then other “sure things” in science arose, and were shot down eventually, and so on until today.

Hardly a day goes by when something isn't found/discovered which potentially casts doubt on some part of some science “fact”.

For instance: the more we look at stone artifacts, the more we become amazed at the construction techniques. The list goes on.

I think arguing dogmatically from any one point of view is to throw the baby out with the bath water. Look at what happened in physics when James Clerk Maxwell's 200 quaternions (vector equations) were radically deformed and changed into (field equations) by Oliver Heaviside. We got modern electromagnetic theory, but no on has ever gone back to the original 200 quaternions (AFAIK).

“The universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose.” - J. B. S. Haldane

Merry Christmas to all.

11 posted on 12/25/2010 6:32:39 AM PST by PIF (They came for me and mine .. now it is your turn..)
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To: SoftwareEngineer; wendy1946
One of the main reasons that I am not a Christian is all the Christians who insist that if I reject the concept that the universe is only a few thousand years old, I am rejecting the entire faith.
12 posted on 12/25/2010 6:37:58 AM PST by Notary Sojac (Imagine the parade to celebrate victory in the WoT. What security measures would we need??)
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To: Strategerist
This would have FReepers who believe in Science.

That's sort of funny as stated. Sort of a contradiction in terms. Better would be, "Freepers who believe in scientism" but then it wouldn't mean what he had intended. It's just the believe part that's incorrect.
13 posted on 12/25/2010 6:43:00 AM PST by aruanan
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To: Notary Sojac

You realize that your reasoning is illogical, don’t you? Most Christians are “old earth”, but the earth age issue is peripheral (although evolution isn’t). The math of macro-evolution is absolutely hopeless. People cling to Darwin because it is their “creation story”.

BTW, someone who says that you have to have a specific view of the age of the earth to be a Christian is quite literally a heretic.


14 posted on 12/25/2010 6:48:12 AM PST by achilles2000 ("I'll agree to save the whales as long as we can deport the liberals")
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To: Notary Sojac
One of the main reasons that I am not a Christian is all the Christians who insist that if I reject the concept that the universe is only a few thousand years old, I am rejecting the entire faith.

Flesh beings have NO power to determine who is Christian. Some like to call 'young earths' Bible literalistic, when in fact there is no place in the whole of the WORD that hints or suggests this earth is young. The most modern flesh can do is come fairly close to how long flesh beings plodded upon this earth.

Genesis through the one Moses who penned it, does NOT even describe when and how each and every 'soul/spirit' was created. Only that the Adam was not living until the 'breath of life' which means 'soul' was breathed into the man's nostrils.

Genesis 1:2 says there was a flood long before the first flesh being was formed/created.

15 posted on 12/25/2010 6:51:37 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: SoftwareEngineer

Evolution is a myth. There is NOT one shred of evidence that flesh beings morphed out of a hot steaming pot of pond scum. The Bible nowhere hints or suggests this earth is young, that is a reactionary myth in an attempt to disprove evolution.


16 posted on 12/25/2010 6:55:24 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: achilles2000
you have to have a specific view of the age of the earth to be a Christian

I don't think I quite said that. The way I usually hear it (including many times on FR) is that the Bible says the universe and all the life in it was created in a certain number of days. And if we choose not to believe that, there is no particular reason to believe anything else in the Bible, including the life and resurrection of Christ.

17 posted on 12/25/2010 7:05:54 AM PST by Notary Sojac (Imagine the parade to celebrate victory in the WoT. What security measures would we need??)
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To: metmom

fyi


18 posted on 12/25/2010 7:07:04 AM PST by wendy1946
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To: Just mythoughts
Are you suggesting that the creation process took many hundreds of millions of years, with the Creator bringing new species on line, letting them run their course, and then replacing them with others?

This is a concept that I have broached on a few of the crevo threads.

I'm usually told that the only reason scientists advocate for an old Earth is that their commitment to godless evolution requires the aeons needed for evolution to work.

So that once I accept that there is a Creator, my belief in an old Earth can be discarded like a no longer needed crutch.

19 posted on 12/25/2010 7:17:44 AM PST by Notary Sojac (Imagine the parade to celebrate victory in the WoT. What security measures would we need??)
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To: Notary Sojac

We actually have one planet (Venus) in our system which appears to be ballpark for the sort of 6000 - 10000 year age you could derive from Bible chronologies and Venus LOOKS like a young planet, 900 degree F surface temperature, 90-bar CO2 atmosphere, statistically random cratering etc. etc. Since Earth and Mars don’t look like that at all you have to assume they are significantly older, but not hundreds of millions or billions of years old. Bob Bass once redid Lord Kelvin’s heat equations for the Earth WITH maximal figures for radioactive elements and came up with an upper bound of around 200M years.


20 posted on 12/25/2010 7:28:52 AM PST by wendy1946
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To: Notary Sojac
One of the main reasons that I am not a Christian is all the Christians who insist that if I reject the concept that the universe is only a few thousand years old, I am rejecting the entire faith.

Odd. I am a Christian because God, through Christ, has transformed me into a new creature. Has nothing to do with what anybody thinks.

21 posted on 12/25/2010 7:28:52 AM PST by Louis Foxwell (pka: Amos the Prophet)
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To: Notary Sojac
Are you suggesting that the creation process took many hundreds of millions of years, with the Creator bringing new species on line, letting them run their course, and then replacing them with others?

As Peter says in IIPeter 3, there were/are three different heaven/earth ages. We in flesh bodies are passing through the 'second' heaven/earth age. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. That is a declaration and nowhere in the whole of the Bible are we told when this took place.

Genesis 1:2 AND ..... describes a catastrophic upheaval, Paul calls it the 'the foundation' which is actually a verb that means the 'casting down - overthrow', wherein some were predestined to do/be because of their 'perfect' love in Christ.

No one in flesh walking this earth can with for a certainty date this earth. But all the evidence demonstrates this earth is very very old.

This is a concept that I have broached on a few of the crevo threads. I'm usually told that the only reason scientists advocate for an old Earth is that their commitment to godless evolution requires the aeons needed for evolution to work. So that once I accept that there is a Creator, my belief in an old Earth can be discarded like a no longer needed crutch.

Fortunately for me and every other soul we have the perfect Judge and only He knows the 'intent' of any one heart/mind. The age of the heavens and earth are in my opinion a total side issue as to how long ago 'flesh human' bodies were formed. I cannot quite comprehend the miracle of how all the many peoples we can readily see are different could come from only two people. That speaks of evolution in really quick time.

It is my opinion that evolutionists know they are factually correct on an old earth and some know they are anti-god in claiming we flesh humans were spawned out of a primordial steaming pot of pond scum. Some of the intellectuals know this is a lie.

22 posted on 12/25/2010 7:40:01 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: ml/nj
I don't know. I guess you could go to FRMS and show us why evolution and geology are myths without relying on religion.

For example, a great case has been made that the Sphinx in Egypt is 10,000 years old. It defies conventional modern science by using hydrology to explain the type of wear and tear that they Sphinx has.

Modern Science is perpetually in upheaval. Things are constantly being proved AND disproved. But evidence relies on science to disprove science. New methods, new algorithms, new technologies.

CAVEAT: I am very religious person. But somehow, when it comes to science, I have relied more on the “modern” science method

23 posted on 12/25/2010 7:49:10 AM PST by SoftwareEngineer
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To: achilles2000
The math of macro-evolution is absolutely hopeless.

Getting anti-evolutionists to understand math is hopeless.

24 posted on 12/25/2010 7:50:51 AM PST by Moonman62 (Half of all Americans are above average. Politicians come from the other half.)
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To: Kevmo

“Believe in Science” is a phrase. At the end of the day, the reason it is NOT a religion is that it has no fixed precepts. It “evolves” (to use a phrase) based on our knowledge.

Back in the 19th century, Newtonian physics “ruled”. Now “Einsteinien” physics dominates. Who knows where we go from here.

Science is a journey of discovery. It is constantly disproving itself.

Religion is more set. For example, I believe in God. I don’t think any evidence is going to make me rethink that belief.

However, in God’s universe, I believe we have the capacity to learn new things.


25 posted on 12/25/2010 7:52:00 AM PST by SoftwareEngineer
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To: wendy1946
Imagine that this process goes on like that for ten million years, which is more than anybody claims is involved in "human evolution". The max number of such "beneficial mutations" which could thus be substituted into the herd would be ten million divided by twenty, or 500,000 point mutations which, Walter Remine notes, is about 1/100 of one percent of the human genome, and a miniscule fraction of the 2 to 3 percent that separates us from chimpanzees, or the half of that which separates us from neanderthals.

You're leaving out beneficial mutations such as duplications, which voids your math and conclusions.

26 posted on 12/25/2010 7:54:57 AM PST by Moonman62 (Half of all Americans are above average. Politicians come from the other half.)
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To: wendy1946

So God spends billions of years creating us and this is how you show your appreciation?


27 posted on 12/25/2010 7:55:37 AM PST by Moonman62 (Half of all Americans are above average. Politicians come from the other half.)
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To: SoftwareEngineer; Jim Robinson
Sometimes I wish Jim Robinson would double the Freepathon to create TWO separate FRs.

FR Modern Science (or FRMS for short)

Why just two? Don't you think there should be separate realities and separate worlds of science for blacks and whites, straight and gay, Christian and Jewish... ? Everybody's entitled to opinions but nobody is entitled to his or her own facts. There can only be one true history or true body of science.

I mean, tell me where you see anything about religious doctrine or what's non-modern in the posting above. I'm not into pushing religion. I'll RECOMMEND Christianity to anybody who ASKS for a recommendation but that has nothing to do with this topic.

What I DO believe is that evolution is junk science and that, as junk science goes, a spectacularly dangerous variety, that it has already caused enough harm and damage in the world, and that it is time to get rid of it.

You can pick any religion you want or any idea about the age of the Earth you want, but you need to understand that evolution is not intellectually respectable, and that ANY religion is a better choice including Voodoo and Rastafari. Neither Voodoo nor Rastafari require belief in infinite sequences of probabilistic miracles and zero-probability events.

28 posted on 12/25/2010 7:58:05 AM PST by wendy1946
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To: Strategerist

You are probably right.

I think that there exists a fault line between biblical conservatives and “modern” conservatives, that should NOT exist.

I believe in God, Family, private property and our Constitution. I may not believe in a 5000 year old Earth.

However, that does not separate me from Sarah Palin. At the end of the day I want Sarah (or any other conservative President) to create an atmosphere, where we are left the HECK ALONE and allowed to practice our own beliefs.

All choices would be made by consenting and clinically sane adults. So, by definition, Abortion would thus be totally illegal, as the Fetus CANNOT consent to being murdered.

If the libertarians could be 100% opposed to Abortion and get it through their thick skulls that Drugs make a human being not be fully “sane” or “normal” (and thus no longer a true “individual” or “Consentor”), then I would be a libertarian.

However, their support of Abortion and Drugs.. is a deal killer for me.


29 posted on 12/25/2010 7:58:42 AM PST by SoftwareEngineer
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To: Moonman62

I suspect that I have done more theoretical and engineering math than most, but enjoy your conceit anyway.


30 posted on 12/25/2010 8:17:03 AM PST by achilles2000 ("I'll agree to save the whales as long as we can deport the liberals")
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To: Notary Sojac

With all the liberal views that you hold in regards to social conservatism, and Christians, you clearly have more reasons for rejecting God than just creation.


31 posted on 12/25/2010 8:24:08 AM PST by ansel12 (Spock faces two Mitt Romneys, his Phaser in hand ! Spock, I'm the real Mitt. Elect me!)
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To: SoftwareEngineer
If the libertarians could be 100% opposed to Abortion and get it through their thick skulls that Drugs make a human being not be fully “sane” or “normal” (and thus no longer a true “individual” or “Consentor”), then I would be a libertarian.

If libertarians became conservative, then they wouldn't be libertarians.

32 posted on 12/25/2010 8:26:10 AM PST by ansel12 (Spock faces two Mitt Romneys, his Phaser in hand ! Spock, I'm the real Mitt. Elect me!)
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To: Moonman62
You're leaving out beneficial mutations such as duplications, which voids your math and conclusions.

Assuming there WAS such a thing in the world (there isn't) as a beneficial mutation, then to get past the Haldane dilemma you'd have to be substituting very large numbers of beneficial mutations into the population on a continual basis.

In other words, you'd need to get God to suspend the laws of probability for your benefit. The problem is that the overwhelming bulk of mutations are harmful or fatal and that substituting large numbers of mutations into a population of animals will destroy it. The short version of the dilemma I noted involves one beneficial mutation per generation being substituted into the population which is wildly beyond anything that could ever happen in real life. Haldane himself came to a number sort of like 300 generations to substitute one mutation into any sizable population of creatures and that's without the population being scattered across continents. That's where the talk of quadrillions of years comes from.

33 posted on 12/25/2010 8:34:24 AM PST by wendy1946
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To: ansel12

“If libertarians became conservative, then they wouldn’t be libertarians.”

I disagree. To be a libertarian, you have to belive in liberty. To believe in liberty means that every human has innate rights about his or her well being.

Abortion contradicts that. No one is asking the fetus, if she/he is ready to be killed. It is a one-sided decision by the mother

Same applies to Drugs. If you have taken drugs, you are no longer in control of your mind and thus cannot make any decisions about your liberty. You are now a slave.

Thus, taken intelectually, both of these stands are contradictory to the inherent “liberties” in “libertarians”

I would venture over half of America would vote libertarian, if they would change these two positions.


34 posted on 12/25/2010 8:40:14 AM PST by SoftwareEngineer
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To: SoftwareEngineer

As far as I know the only difference between a conservative and a libertarian, or a liberal and a libertarian, is which portion of their agenda you are looking at.

Libertarians are conservative on economic issues, and liberal on social/cultural, immigration, and national defense.

If Libertarians move right on abortion and such, then they start losing the need to use their language of separation from conservatives, and they approach being conservative.


35 posted on 12/25/2010 8:51:00 AM PST by ansel12 (Spock faces two Mitt Romneys, his Phaser in hand ! Spock, I'm the real Mitt. Elect me!)
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To: SoftwareEngineer
I am very religious person.

Well, I guess you haven't noticed that the evos are too. They =believe= so it must be true. My objections to evolution and geology are scientific, not religious. The supposed experts want to gloss over their contradictions because they don't have any better stories to tell. I am troubled by contradictions. I am not troubled by not having answers.

ML/NJ

36 posted on 12/25/2010 10:31:24 AM PST by ml/nj
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To: ml/nj

The scientists are WRONG. We didn’t evolve from monkeys. We evolved from fuzzy bunnies. And bunnies evolved from hamsters.

**I** said it, and so it is!


37 posted on 12/25/2010 10:36:07 AM PST by sadponies
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To: SoftwareEngineer

The happiest day of my life will be the day I go to vote in an election and the choices are between Republicans and Libertarians, and the demoKKKrat party is an ugly footnote in history books with the last of its leaders rotting in prison cells or in cages at the National Zoo on Connecticut Avenue with the bars welded shut and signs posted not to feed them through the bars.


38 posted on 12/25/2010 11:01:25 AM PST by wendy1946
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To: wendy1946

“The happiest day of my life will be the day I go to vote in an election and the choices are between Republicans and Libertarians”

Ditto!

In my fantasy world, I would see three parties:

1. The SoCon party. This would be a social conservative party. Would be the party of God etc. Uber conservative socially, moderate economically, moderate on personal liberty (as God would be imposed on society)

2. The small “l” liberal party: These guys would be social moderates but economic uber conservatives. Also, high on personal liberty.

3. The Reformed Libertarians. Socially “liberal”, economically uber conservative, and huge emphasis on personal liberty (live free or die!)

I think three such parties would create a good balance. The SoCons would compromise with the “l”iberals to keep some public morals.

The Liberterians would compromise with “l”iberals to preserve individual liberty

All three would keep economic liberty.

Probably the “l”iberal party would dominate with 40% of the vote. The SoCons would get 35% and the Libertarians would get 25%


39 posted on 12/25/2010 11:16:37 AM PST by SoftwareEngineer
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To: Just mythoughts

You know, it’s really kinda comical, watching people try to decipher hidden bible codes, arguing over the age of the earth, evolution, bizzare interpretations of old testament stuff, meatless fridays, or whatever,,etc.

The only thing that matters is do you believe Jesus is the son of God, (or am i supposed to say G-D, yeshua, yahweh, jehova,,,i get confused) And that this man Jesus died on the cross for your sins. If you believe that, the rest suddenly turns into a silly parlor game.


40 posted on 12/25/2010 11:52:36 AM PST by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office)
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To: Notary Sojac

“And if we choose not to believe that, there is no particular reason to believe anything else in the Bible, including the life and resurrection of Christ.”

Universe in 7 days,, if you don’t believe that, it doesn’t follow logically that you should throw it away. It only means you arent a candidate for an inerrency branch of Christianity. This means you could fit easily into the huge majority of Christians who recognize that the Bible contains a lot of allegory, poetry, and symbolism.


41 posted on 12/25/2010 11:57:34 AM PST by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office)
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To: wendy1946
Your willful ignorance of science is sad, and still many of the history denying anti-science crowd wonder why everybody else mocks them…

Examples of recent human evolution Link

42 posted on 12/25/2010 2:38:00 PM PST by Ira_Louvin (Go tell them people lost in sin, Theres a higher power ,They need not fear the works of men.)
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To: ml/nj; SoftwareEngineer
Good point. Then there are the gang who believe the Bible is absolutely correct when it says God planted a garden in Eden ~ so he stopped by the Intergalactic Plant Shop on his way to Earth.

A simple dichotomy or bifurcation doesn't deal with the more reasonable explanations, Panspermia being one!

43 posted on 12/25/2010 4:52:32 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Notary Sojac

That would be a couple of hundred Christians ~ may I recommend to you a larger congregation or two ~ really. Almost NO ONE believes the 6,000 year thing, particularly not Christians.


44 posted on 12/25/2010 4:55:50 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Moonman62
And "epigenetics" which bypasses the internal DNA structure completely!

You could take something like a fruit fly and by turning on some genes, turning off others, bypassing some (for later), and short circuiting others into working with yet a different gene to make a totally new protein or enzyme, and show up with an Elephant or an Eggplant.

All you need is time and patience, as well as a really in-depth understanding of how each gene works, how the DNA sequences within a chromosome can be made to work with each other, and a whole lot of other stuff we can only now begin to imagine.

It was the first inklings of "epigenetics" that led me to the wholly uninformed conclusion that LIFE was so incredibly complex that somewhere in the body of the DNA strands there must be something akin to quantum level super computers and we'd eventually find them ~ and, oh BTW, that'd make LIFE so complex that it must certainly have originated BILLIONS of universes ago ~ a mere 13.0 billion years just isn't enough for that sort of thing.

45 posted on 12/25/2010 5:09:09 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: ansel12
Libertarians are very much the traditionalists on life/death issues and, in general, hold to the ancient doctrine that if it moves it's edible.

I'm not sure that's compatible for leading a peaceful life in any human community.

46 posted on 12/25/2010 5:14:12 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: DesertRhino

Getting rid of the theory of evolution is not a parlor game. There are upwards of two hundred million dead bodies lying around on account of ideological doctrines for which evolution was the basic philosophical corner stone. It’s past time to get rid of it.


47 posted on 12/25/2010 7:22:14 PM PST by wendy1946
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To: Notary Sojac

If you’re rejecting Christ because of someone’s opinion, you’re missing Christ entirely. It’s about Him. Learn about Him and reject or accept Him on His attributes...not someone else’s opinion of what you should or shouldn’t believe about Him.


48 posted on 12/25/2010 7:40:53 PM PST by dubyagee (Thrilled to be here...)
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To: PIF

” ... Look at what happened in physics when James Clerk Maxwell’s 200 quaternions (vector equations) were radically deformed and changed into (field equations) by Oliver Heaviside. We got modern electromagnetic theory, but no on has ever gone back to the original 200 quaternions (AFAIK) ... “

Some have argued that much was lost by Oliver Heaviside’s vector field equation treatment. Just saying
Do you know of a accessible source for Maxwell’s original 200 quaternions?


49 posted on 12/25/2010 9:04:21 PM PST by J Edgar
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To: J Edgar

Do you know of a accessible source for Maxwell’s original 200 quaternions?

No. Probably in some University library.


From a review of Five of Maxwell’s Papers [Kindle Edition]:
“Unfortunately, most people today, even professional Physicists like myself, have never come across any of Maxwell’s writings in their original form. This is primarily due to the fact that even though the content of the physical theories has not really changed, our understanding of them has significantly evolved. Furthermore, there has been a tremendous amount of standardization in mathematical and conceptual formalism over time, and some of the older scientific articles have become quaint in their use of language, or in some cases even unintelligible.”

There are some James Clerk Maxwell books on Amazon; try searching major Univeristy libraries; else trip of England may be in order.


50 posted on 12/26/2010 4:50:16 AM PST by PIF (They came for me and mine .. now it is your turn..)
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