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Did The Ancient Greeks Make A Computer?
An Article | 1977 | Lionel Casson

Posted on 11/01/2003 9:21:03 AM PST by Holly_P

....At the western entrance to the Aegean Sea, midway between the islands of Crete and Kythera, rises little Antikythera. It was off that island in 1900 that a sponge diver found, on the bottom, the wreck of an ancient ship loaded with statues, amphorae and other objects. ....This wreck was the first great under water find of modern archaeology. It yielded not only a rich hoard of art treasures but an astonishingly sophisticated scientific instrument. But while the marble and bronze statues and the pottery were recognized at once as the work of Greek artisans around the time of Christ, the bronze instrument, encrusted with calcareous deposits lay ignored. As it gradually dried, the ancient wood casing and internal parts cracked and split into four flat fragments, the inner sides of which revealed parts of geared wheels together with some barely legible inscriptions. Thereafter, as cleaning exposed more gears and inscriptions, scholars affirmed that the device was a navagational tool, an astrolabe, used to determine the altitude of the sun and other celestial bodies. This identification was remarkable enough, considering that only simple implements had previously turned up from the Hellenistic period: yet even so it was, more and more obviously inadequate for so complex assembly. ....What, then, could it be, this mysterious Antikythera mechanism? ....In 1951, an American historian of science, Professor Derek de Solla Price of Yale, became intrigued by the riddle. While other scholars established that the wrecked ship, almost certainly bound for Italy with wares from Asia Minor and the Greek islands, had floundered in about 78 B.C., Price studied the device himself. At last, in 1959, he announced in print that the mechanism was, as he called it in his article, "An Ancient Greek Computer"; one that indicated by means of dials and pointers, the motions of the sun and moon past, present and future and synchronously, the moon's phases. ....A computer- in the first century B.C.? The claim excited much skepticism and one retired professor insisted that the device had to be a modern orrery- of the kind he had seen as a child used to demonstrate the Copernican system- which had somehow intruded on the wreck. (He was, in fact, not far off on it's function but totally off on its date.) Certain popular writers, by contrast, eagerly accepted the identification of the device as a computer- but asserted it could only have been made by extraterrestrials from a technologically superior civilization. ....Unfazed by any of this, Price continued to puzzle out the numerous small but critical problems the mechanism presented, attemting to complete computing the number of teeth on the gear wheels (none more than partially visible) and determining as best he could, which gears meshed with which others. The work went slowly until 1971, when learning that gamma-radiography could see through solid matter, Price persuaded the Greek authorities to let his collaborator, Dr. Karakalos take gammaradiographs of the fragments. These revealed so much detail, so clearly, that after analyzing them the two men could confidently relate the gear ratios to known astronomical and calendrical data and in 1974, Price submitted his definitive findings to the American Philosophical Society. ....Activated by hand, the Antikythera mechanism consists of a train of more than thirty gears of greatly varied sizes meshing in parallel planes but its most spectacular feature is a differential gear permitting two shafts to rotate at different speeds, like the one that allows the rear wheels of a modern car to turn at different rates on a curve. ....There is no mention of the Antikythera device in ancient literature but a similar mechanism was described by Cicero and later by Ovid and others: this was an ingenious planetarium, simulating the movements of the sun, the moon and the five planets, that had been devised in the third century B.C. by Archimedes. Cicero, incidentally, was on Rhodes between 79 and 77 B.C., just as the Antikythera mechanism was presumably lost at sea; while there he saw a geared planetarium that may have been built by Posidonios, a renowned geographer (among other things) who lectured in Rhodes. ....The Antikythera device derives then, from Archimedes, either by a gradual, unrecorded evolution or by the massive innovation of some unknown genius, perhaps of the school of Posidonios. If only for his use of the differential gear, "one of the greatest basic mechanical inventions of all time," its maker should, says Price, "be accorded the highest honors."


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: antikythera; antikytheramechanism; archaeology; computers; economic; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; greece; greek; history; machine; mechanics; mechanism; windows
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Windows 100 B.C.?
1 posted on 11/01/2003 9:21:04 AM PST by Holly_P
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To: Holly_P
Sorry for the lack of paragraph indentation. I tried. Better luck next time I guess.
2 posted on 11/01/2003 9:22:23 AM PST by Holly_P (.)
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To: Holly_P
Headline should read "Ancient Geeks".
3 posted on 11/01/2003 9:22:46 AM PST by JusPasenThru (We're through being cool (you can say that again, Dad))
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To: Holly_P
Oracle of Dell-phi ?
4 posted on 11/01/2003 9:26:12 AM PST by COUNTrecount
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To: Holly_P
http://www.giant.net.au/users/rupert/kythera/kythera3.htm

has some more info
5 posted on 11/01/2003 9:27:54 AM PST by evolved_rage
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To: diotima; Ippolita
ancient ping
6 posted on 11/01/2003 9:27:57 AM PST by agitator (Ok, mic check...line one...)
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To: Holly_P
...My first effort. I thought it was fascinating. probably dull for everyone else especially with no paragraph breaks.
...I have been a member for one day. Is this the reason for the (.) after my name?
7 posted on 11/01/2003 9:29:34 AM PST by Holly_P (.Proud member of F.R. for one day.)
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To: Holly_P
Another article I read a few years back had an accompanying photo of the encrusted device. Was there a photo with this one?
8 posted on 11/01/2003 9:30:31 AM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote life support for others.)
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To: Holly_P
Beta testing.
9 posted on 11/01/2003 9:30:54 AM PST by Consort
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To: Holly_P
"Is this the reason for the (.) after my name?"

...OK it's not there now and further more I am talking to myself...Nerves I reckon.
10 posted on 11/01/2003 9:31:06 AM PST by Holly_P (.Proud member of F.R. for one day.)
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To: Holly_P
Could be... was found in a crash, right?
11 posted on 11/01/2003 9:32:04 AM PST by thoughtomator ("A republic, if you can keep it.")
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To: MHGinTN
..."Was there a photo with this one?"

...Yes, but my scanner doesn't do very well with that type picture. I tried it and it came out so blurred that it wasnt recognizable.
12 posted on 11/01/2003 9:32:48 AM PST by Holly_P (.Proud member of F.R. for one day.)
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To: Holly_P

13 posted on 11/01/2003 9:35:15 AM PST by Consort
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To: Holly_P
...OK it's not there now and further more I am talking to myself...Nerves I reckon.

BOO! BoogaBoogaBooga!


14 posted on 11/01/2003 9:37:10 AM PST by Lazamataz (PROUDLY SCARING NEWBIES SINCE 1999 !!!!)
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To: evolved_rage


...Great pictures! Thanks so much for the link.
15 posted on 11/01/2003 9:37:13 AM PST by Holly_P (.Proud member of F.R. for one day.)
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To: Holly_P
This item was discussed by the physicist Richard Feynman in his book of stories: Surely You're Joking. He said he was in Greece and went to the museum where the computer was supposed to be and found that not only was it not on display but no one there seemed to be realizing the importance of this find.

There was an article on it in Scientific American a long time ago but I don't believe it showed any of the gammaradiographs. From the picture they did show of the corroded object it was hard to see how they deduced a a very complex structure including a differential gear.

16 posted on 11/01/2003 9:37:48 AM PST by wideminded
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To: Holly_P
...OK it's not there now and further more I am talking to myself...Nerves I reckon.

MY SATANIC CAT IS AFTER YOU.


17 posted on 11/01/2003 9:39:07 AM PST by Lazamataz (PROUDLY SCARING NEWBIES SINCE 1999 !!!!)
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To: Lazamataz
Obviously you don't know anything about washing cats ... there should be a well of warm water into which you place the critter, to keep it warm while insulting its dignity. Oh the indignities some cats have to endure!
18 posted on 11/01/2003 9:42:20 AM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote life support for others.)
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To: wideminded
...For more info and pictures check the link provided in message #5 by: evolved_rage
19 posted on 11/01/2003 9:42:26 AM PST by Holly_P (.Proud member of F.R. for one day.)
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To: MHGinTN
Obviously you don't know anything about washing cats ... there should be a well of warm water into which you place the critter, to keep it warm while insulting its dignity. Oh the indignities some cats have to endure!

What good's a cat unless you can make it feel undignified?

Besides, this is a really good Wet ****y shot. I figure just for that alone, it's worth is.

20 posted on 11/01/2003 9:44:53 AM PST by Lazamataz (PROUDLY SCARING NEWBIES SINCE 1999 !!!!)
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To: Holly_P
Sometimes at FR talking to yourself is the only way to hold an intelligent conversation, so no worries ....
21 posted on 11/01/2003 9:49:30 AM PST by BlueNgold (Feed the Tree .....)
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To: BlueNgold
Certainly is the only way to get replies, lately! Sheesh.
22 posted on 11/01/2003 9:59:12 AM PST by Lazamataz (PROUDLY SCARING NEWBIES SINCE 1999 !!!!)
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To: Holly_P
I have been a member for one day. Is this the reason for the (.) after my name?

It is a secret tracking device that we stick on all newbies.

Now that you have found us out you will be hunted down.

It is nothing personal you understand. Do you have any last messages you would like to send to your family or friends?

23 posted on 11/01/2003 10:02:19 AM PST by Harmless Teddy Bear (No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style)
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To: farmfriend
ping
24 posted on 11/01/2003 10:05:20 AM PST by Thud
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To: Lazamataz

Laz I must say, judging from your most recent picture, that Adkins diet has done you a world of good!

25 posted on 11/01/2003 10:08:32 AM PST by Mad Dawgg (French: old Europe word meaning surrender)
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To: Holly_P
Welcome!

You'll get the hang of paragraph breaks after awhile. Good post.
26 posted on 11/01/2003 10:09:27 AM PST by 68skylark
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To: MHGinTN; Holly_P
"Another article I read a few years back had an accompanying photo of the encrusted device. Was there a photo with this one?"

Yup. I've seen a picture of the original and also a present day replica of the original.

Welcome aboard Holly_P.

27 posted on 11/01/2003 10:16:01 AM PST by blam
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To: Lazamataz
Yeah well, I have found that at times talking to myself is preferable to trying to learn 'brick-wall-ese' - but that is another topic for another day ....

Sometimes I find myself saying ridiculously outrageous things just to see if people are actually paying attention, or if they are 'Sparrow Posting' (Fire and Forget).

28 posted on 11/01/2003 10:17:40 AM PST by BlueNgold (Feed the Tree .....)
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To: blam
OK, I'll cop to being the first admittedly guilty party ... most times newbies get flamed for no reason other than being new ... How many of us checked Holly's page and saw that she (I assume Holly infers a 'she' person) is an 18 yr old college student? Amazing how how much nicer we are to a young female with a pretty name...
29 posted on 11/01/2003 10:20:17 AM PST by BlueNgold (Feed the Tree .....)
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To: MHGinTN; Holly_P
An Ancient Greek Computer? (1959 Scientific American Article about this subject)
30 posted on 11/01/2003 10:20:27 AM PST by blam
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To: BlueNgold
'Sparrow Posting' (Fire and Forget).
...That's funny and I actually "get it" I don't usually.
...Maybe we should be thankful that there's no "Sea Gull Posting"
31 posted on 11/01/2003 10:21:52 AM PST by Holly_P (.Proud member of F.R. for one day.)
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To: Holly_P

32 posted on 11/01/2003 10:21:52 AM PST by blam
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To: Holly_P
the important question is, did the greeks play quake1 ctf on the computer?
33 posted on 11/01/2003 10:22:39 AM PST by isom35
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To: blam

Ancient Computer

34 posted on 11/01/2003 10:22:39 AM PST by freedumb2003 (Peace through Strength)
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To: Holly_P
Why not the computer? They did already have the pipe organ, even though it was invented earlier in Egypt. There was lots of technology around.

...we do know who was generally recognized as the inventor of such an instrument, the first pipe organ. His name was Ktesibius and he lived in Alexandria (in what is now Egypt) in the third century BC. The son of a local barber, he was an engineer specializing in hydraulic and pneumatic devices.

Which sort of leads to the question, "Did Jesus play the pipe organ at his services?"

35 posted on 11/01/2003 10:23:34 AM PST by skraeling
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To: BlueNgold
"Amazing how how much nicer we are to a young female with a pretty name..."

I didn't check...I was searching for supporting data.

36 posted on 11/01/2003 10:23:56 AM PST by blam
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To: Holly_P
Without paragraphs all I can say is this;


37 posted on 11/01/2003 10:25:18 AM PST by LibKill (We OWE our fighting men everything that we have.)
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To: Holly_P
At the western entrance to the Aegean Sea, midway between the islands of Crete and Kythera, rises little Antikythera. It was off that island in 1900 that a sponge diver found, on the bottom, the wreck of an ancient ship loaded with statues, amphorae and other objects.

This wreck was the first great under water find of modern archaeology. It yielded not only a rich hoard of art treasures but an astonishingly sophisticated scientific instrument. But while the marble and bronze statues and the pottery were recognized at once as the work of Greek artisans around the time of Christ, the bronze instrument, encrusted with calcareous deposits lay ignored. As it gradually dried, the ancient wood casing and internal parts cracked and split into four flat fragments, the inner sides of which revealed parts of geared wheels together with some barely legible inscriptions. Thereafter, as cleaning exposed more gears and inscriptions, scholars affirmed that the device was a navagational tool, an astrolabe, used to determine the altitude of the sun and other celestial bodies. This identification was remarkable enough, considering that only simple implements had previously turned up from the Hellenistic period: yet even so it was, more and more obviously inadequate for so complex assembly.

What, then, could it be, this mysterious Antikythera mechanism?

In 1951, an American historian of science, Professor Derek de Solla Price of Yale, became intrigued by the riddle. While other scholars established that the wrecked ship, almost certainly bound for Italy with wares from Asia Minor and the Greek islands, had floundered in about 78 B.C., Price studied the device himself. At last, in 1959, he announced in print that the mechanism was, as he called it in his article, "An Ancient Greek Computer"; one that indicated by means of dials and pointers, the motions of the sun and moon past, present and future and synchronously, the moon's phases.

A computer- in the first century B.C.? The claim excited much skepticism and one retired professor insisted that the device had to be a modern orrery- of the kind he had seen as a child used to demonstrate the Copernican system- which had somehow intruded on the wreck. (He was, in fact, not far off on it's function but totally off on its date.) Certain popular writers, by contrast, eagerly accepted the identification of the device as a computer- but asserted it could only have been made by extraterrestrials from a technologically superior civilization.

Unfazed by any of this, Price continued to puzzle out the numerous small but critical problems the mechanism presented, attemting to complete computing the number of teeth on the gear wheels (none more than partially visible) and determining as best he could, which gears meshed with which others. The work went slowly until 1971, when learning that gamma-radiography could see through solid matter, Price persuaded the Greek authorities to let his collaborator, Dr. Karakalos take gammaradiographs of the fragments. These revealed so much detail, so clearly, that after analyzing them the two men could confidently relate the gear ratios to known astronomical and calendrical data and in 1974, Price submitted his definitive findings to the American Philosophical Society.

Activated by hand, the Antikythera mechanism consists of a train of more than thirty gears of greatly varied sizes meshing in parallel planes but its most spectacular feature is a differential gear permitting two shafts to rotate at different speeds, like the one that allows the rear wheels of a modern car to turn at different rates on a curve.

There is no mention of the Antikythera device in ancient literature but a similar mechanism was described by Cicero and later by Ovid and others: this was an ingenious planetarium, simulating the movements of the sun, the moon and the five planets, that had been devised in the third century B.C. by Archimedes. Cicero, incidentally, was on Rhodes between 79 and 77 B.C., just as the Antikythera mechanism was presumably lost at sea; while there he saw a geared planetarium that may have been built by Posidonios, a renowned geographer (among other things) who lectured in Rhodes.

The Antikythera device derives then, from Archimedes, either by a gradual, unrecorded evolution or by the massive innovation of some unknown genius, perhaps of the school of Posidonios. If only for his use of the differential gear, "one of the greatest basic mechanical inventions of all time," its maker should, says Price, "be accorded the highest honors."

.

.

That's better! ;-)

38 posted on 11/01/2003 10:27:39 AM PST by StriperSniper (All this, of course, is simply pious fudge. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: BlueNgold
(I assume Holly infers a 'she' person)


...Yep, I am a she person but I try real hard not to be a "sheeple" (Did I spell that right?)

...You must not have seen my reply to a post last night.I caught "heck" a little bit but it was expected and I took it in stride I think.
...I'll take this time to say a big THANKS to everyone for being so nice to me.
39 posted on 11/01/2003 10:28:29 AM PST by Holly_P (.Proud member of F.R. for one day.)
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To: Holly_P
The Antikythera mechanism

The clockwork computer

Sep 19th 2002
From The Economist print edition

An ancient piece of clockwork shows the deep roots of modern technology

WHEN a Greek sponge diver called Elias Stadiatos discovered the wreck of a cargo ship off the tiny island of Antikythera in 1900, it was the statues lying on the seabed that made the greatest impression on him. He returned to the surface, removed his helmet, and gabbled that he had found a heap of dead, naked women. The ship's cargo of luxury goods also included jewellery, pottery, fine furniture, wine and bronzes dating back to the first century BC. But the most important finds proved to be a few green, corroded lumps—the last remnants of an elaborate mechanical device.

The Antikythera mechanism, as it is now known, was originally housed in a wooden box about the size of a shoebox, with dials on the outside and a complex assembly of bronze gear wheels within. X-ray photographs of the fragments, in which around 30 separate gears can be distinguished, led the late Derek Price, a science historian at Yale University, to conclude that the device was an astronomical computer capable of predicting the positions of the sun and moon in the zodiac on any given date. A new analysis, though, suggests that the device was cleverer than Price thought, and reinforces the evidence for his theory of an ancient Greek tradition of complex mechanical technology.

Michael Wright, the curator of mechanical engineering at the Science Museum in London, has based his new analysis on detailed X-rays of the mechanism using a technique called linear tomography. This involves moving an X-ray source, the film and the object being investigated relative to one another, so that only features in a particular plane come into focus. Analysis of the resulting images, carried out in conjunction with Allan Bromley, a computer scientist at Sydney University, found the exact position of each gear, and suggested that Price was wrong in several respects.

In some cases, says Mr Wright, Price seems to have “massaged” the number of teeth on particular gears (most of which are, admittedly, incomplete) in order to arrive at significant astronomical ratios. Price's account also, he says, displays internal contradictions, selective use of evidence and unwarranted speculation. In particular, it postulates an elaborate reversal mechanism to get some gears to turn in the right direction.

Since so little of the mechanism survives, some guesswork is unavoidable. But Mr Wright noticed a fixed boss at the centre of the mechanism's main wheel. To his instrument-maker's eye, this was suggestive of a fixed central gear around which other moving gears could rotate. This does away with the need for Price's reversal mechanism and leads to the idea that the device was specifically designed to model a particular form of “epicyclic” motion.

The Greeks believed in an earth-centric universe and accounted for celestial bodies' motions using elaborate models based on epicycles, in which each body describes a circle (the epicycle) around a point that itself moves in a circle around the earth. Mr Wright found evidence that the Antikythera mechanism would have been able to reproduce the motions of the sun and moon accurately, using an epicyclic model devised by Hipparchus, and of the planets Mercury and Venus, using an epicyclic model derived by Apollonius of Perga. (These models, which predate the mechanism, were subsequently incorporated into the work of Claudius Ptolemy in the second century AD.)

A device that just modelled the motions of the sun, moon, Mercury and Venus does not make much sense. But if an upper layer of mechanism had been built, and lost, these extra gears could have modelled the motions of the three other planets known at the time—Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. In other words, the device may have been able to predict the positions of the known celestial bodies for any given date with a respectable degree of accuracy, using bronze pointers on a circular dial with the constellations of the zodiac running round its edge.

Mr Wright devised a putative model in which the mechanisms for each celestial body stack up like layers in a sandwich, and started building it in his workshop. The completed reconstruction, details of which appeared in an article in the Horological Journal in May, went on display this week at Technopolis, a museum in Athens. By winding a knob on the side, celestial bodies can be made to advance and retreat so that their positions on any chosen date can be determined. Mr Wright says his device could have been built using ancient tools because the ancient Greeks had saws whose teeth were cut using v-shaped files—a task that is similar to the cutting of teeth on a gear wheel. He has even made several examples by hand.

How closely this reconstruction matches up to the original will never be known. The purpose of two dials on the back of the device is still unclear, although one may indicate the year. Nor is the device's purpose obvious: it may have been an astrological computer, used to speed up the casting of horoscopes, though it might just as easily have been a luxury plaything. But Mr Wright is convinced that his epicyclic interpretation is correct, and that the original device modelled the entire known solar system.

The Greeks had a word for it

That tallies with ancient sources that refer to such devices. Cicero, writing in the first century BC, mentions an instrument “recently constructed by our friend Poseidonius, which at each revolution reproduces the same motions of the sun, the moon and the five planets.” Archimedes is also said to have made a small planetarium, and two such devices were said to have been rescued from Syracuse when it fell in 212BC. This reconstruction suggests such references can now be taken literally.

It also provides strong support for Price's theory. He believed that the mechanism was strongly suggestive of an ancient Greek tradition of complex mechanical technology which, transmitted via the Arab world, formed the basis of European clockmaking techniques. This fits with another, smaller device that was acquired in 1983 by the Science Museum, which models the motions of the sun and moon. Dating from the sixth century AD, it provides a previously missing link between the Antikythera mechanism and later Islamic calendar computers, such as the 13th century example at the Museum of the History of Science in Oxford. That device, in turn, uses techniques described in a manuscript written by al-Biruni, an Arab astronomer, around 1000AD.

The origins of much modern technology, from railway engines to robots, can be traced back to the elaborate mechanical toys, or automata, that flourished in the 18th century. Those toys, in turn, grew out of the craft of clockmaking. And that craft, like so many other aspects of the modern world, seems to have roots that can be traced right back to ancient Greece.

40 posted on 11/01/2003 10:30:34 AM PST by blam
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To: Holly_P
I see you've got the

paragraph and
line breaks down ...

Now all you need is an occasional Bold or italic, or if you're feeling really fancy go for the Bold Italics .. Next week ... Colors, font changes, and graphics ... lol

41 posted on 11/01/2003 10:34:16 AM PST by BlueNgold (Feed the Tree .....)
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To: blam
...Thanks for the very interesting link. I considered pasting it here but don't want to take up a lot of space. It is well worth reading though.
42 posted on 11/01/2003 10:43:34 AM PST by Holly_P (.Proud member of F.R. for one day.)
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To: blam
You do know why it was on the bottom of sea, don't you?
that was the ancient cure for viruses.

Besides the MuSigma people and the pomegranate people were always warring over which had the better and faster computer

Seriously, this was rather more like a mechanical calculator than a computer.
43 posted on 11/01/2003 10:47:04 AM PST by fqued ("He who doens't reboot at least once a day is not using the capacity of his computer.")
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To: Holly_P
Holly,

Okay, now that you've been razzed for a while,
check out:

Reference HTML Cheatsheet:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/757944/posts?page=1,50

Secondly: that (.) was really a tagline that you inadvertently created. Note after a posters screenname there often appears some witty or deep comment in parentheses. You too can do that by filling in the tag line space after printing a reply. It's right there on the posting page after the "your reply" section.
44 posted on 11/01/2003 10:51:44 AM PST by fqued ("He who doesn't reboot at least once a day is not using the capacity of his computer.")
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To: blam
From the link in message #5 and from your reply, I can't seem to get it as to whether the Greek mechanism and the much later "Islamic calendar" Were independant inventions.
It would seem so to me since the Islamic versions were "less sophisticated" (from the link in message #5)Were it "borrowed" from the Greeks it would follow that it would be more sophisticated, improvements having been made with the passage of time.
45 posted on 11/01/2003 10:56:09 AM PST by Holly_P (I'm learning. slowly but surely.)
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To: Holly_P; blam; *Gods, Graves, Glyphs; Alas Babylon!; annyokie; bd476; BiffWondercat; ...
Gods, Graves, Glyphs
List for articles regarding early civilizations , life of all forms, - dinosaurs - etc.

Let me know if you wish to be added or removed from this ping list.

For real time political chat - Radio Free Republic chat room

46 posted on 11/01/2003 10:59:36 AM PST by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
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To: Holly_P

47 posted on 11/01/2003 11:01:58 AM PST by Petronski (Living life in a minor key.)
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To: Petronski
That's what my Grampa is getting me for Christmas. I don't think he knows it yet though.
48 posted on 11/01/2003 11:06:21 AM PST by Holly_P (Life is like.............Life.)
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To: farmfriend
Yes, please do add me to your list. Thank you.
49 posted on 11/01/2003 11:07:44 AM PST by Holly_P
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To: Holly_P
Consider yourself added. If you ever change your mind, just let me know.
50 posted on 11/01/2003 11:09:17 AM PST by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
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