Terri's Fight - (Daily Thread/Updates) November 14-18

keep up the good work. :)

I talked today to a member of my church who is an MD who does cardiac ressusitation in the hospital where I have treatment. He deals with these issues constantly. My specific concern was Terri's case and Advance Directives vs. what MD's will overrule. His take on it: the Shiavo case is a nightmare that thankfully is extremely rare. And...

It is extremely important in this day that we all have Advance Directives and a designated Medical Power of Attorney IN WRITING, and that the agent/proxy *fully* understands your wishes and will carry them out whether or not he or she agrees with them. If you don't, your next of kin *will* have your Medical Power of Attorney. As we've seen in Terri's case, that's almost impossible to change, regardless of morality, conflict of interest, etc.

Get it done! Assign a Medical Power of Attorney, someone you absolutely trust, and tell him/her *and* everyone in your sphere what you want.</p.

My MD connection confirms that it is so difficult to overturn Medical Power of Attorney (whether written or legally assumed such as in Terri's case) that you don't have to worry about doctors overturning it. The problems occur when family members disagree with the decisions of the agent about what the wishes of the patient would be. It doesn't help Terri, but we need to let our families and friends know that we've assigned a legal Medical Power of Attorney (and an alternate), and spend 10 minutes making our choices clear. I've got a contentious family, and what I have to make clear is that my son Matthew and my daughter Bethany are *not* to be pressured to obey anyone's wishes but mine. The good news, anyway, from my MD friend, is that for *now* most of us don't have to worry about being in Terri's situation, especially if we an Advance Directive. It doesn't make me feel any better about Terri, but everyone who cares about me has in writing what I want, and we'll never go through this.

Can we get a special session to adopt this proposed law in regard to guardianships? We will need this special session if we are to save Terri from Baird, Felos, Greer, et al

I pray it be so!!!

bump

"I still say Wolfson looks like a zombie out of "Night of the Living Dead." OMG, you reckon they're recycling them?"

LOL

HI, Robert. I don't understand your comments! Perhaps you have me mixed up with someone else?? You wrote I hope this will eliminate any further worry you may have about what and how my index update is presented.

Thanks again for you're well intended input Cyn, it is appreciated.

in response to me linking two new articles for the readers of this thread and to you and sweetliberty, who I know are cataloging them. Did I offend you by doing this or by any other comment?

Let me hasten to clarify two things, though I do believe I've been clear in what I've written re: your work.: 1) I have NO worry about what and how your index update is presented, you have received my admiration and thanks and nothing else! 2) my comments are not well-intended -- they are for information of any who read them who may have missed those two new threads (as I often do).

I did work like yours in the past, in cataloging all the post election protests in Dec 2000 with a good Freeper friend -- I know how hard what you are doing is! Your work stands on its own, with no detraction possible. Take care, friend.

Cat...I think you just dreamed what all of us hope and pray for.........Terri to feel the warm sunshine on her face and see the trees.watch the squirrels and birds in the trees, smell the fresh salt of the ocean breeze. Just to do some of lifes simplist things that some of us take for granted would stimulate her to what? we will never know if not given the chance

I love that new Troll Be Gone. At a thread near me? LOL

Responding to Patients in the Persistent Vegetative State

"For those who remain in PVS, the average life-expectancy is two to five years. It is unusual for someone to survive more than 10 years, although two patients have survived for 37 and 41 years."

"There are some related conditions which must, where possible, be clearly differentiated from PVS. In whole-brain death all brain function has ceased. There are no sleep-wake cycles, and no spontaneous respiration. Today, brain death is synonymous with death. Hence, statements like "She is brain dead. Why do they not let her die?" are misleading and reflect a misunderstanding of the terminology. In spite of efforts to change the definition of death, currently someone in PVS is neither dead nor brain dead."

Are PVS Patients Unconscious?

" It is commonly assumed that PVS patients are unconscious and therefore unaware of themselves and/or their environments. This belief is central to many arguments favoring withholding or withdrawing food and fluids from PVS patients, including those by Christian authors.... But how is this determined? A central problem in the MSTF argument is that it equates the lack of behavioral evidence for consciousness with the absence of consciousness. But consciousness is completely compatible with a lack of evidence for it. However, even when evidence would suggest consciousness, the MSTF quickly disregarded it."

For example, after listing the many functions performed by PVS patients, the MSTF concluded: "These motor activities may misleadingly suggest purposeful movements, yet these responses have been observed in patients in whom careful study has disclosed no evidence of psychological awareness or the capacity to engage in learned behavior." For such a fundamentally important conclusion, it is curious that the MSTF did not reference any of these studies."

The extent of cerebral cortex damage leads the MSTF to confidently assert that PVS patients are "noncognitive, nonsentient, and incapable of conscious experience." Yet the physical location of our 'seat of consciousness' "remains a hotly debated issue." There is mounting evidence that the cerebral cortex is not the only area of the brain involved in cognition. Recent studies on the brain of Karen Ann Quinlan revealed some unexpected results. Her cerebral cortex showed little damage, with most damage being in her thalamus, an area of the brain distinct from the cerebral cortex. These studies support the critical role of the thalamus in cognition and awareness. Other studies suggest that another part of the brain, the cerebellum, is also involved in cognition. Some respected researchers in this field even hold that in some sense consciousness resides in the whole brain. Howsepian, in contrast to the MSTF, concludes that "our understanding of the biological underpinnings of consciousness is relatively primitive."

"The confident assertion that PVS patients are unconscious and unaware of themselves and their environment is based on ambiguous clinical data. Rather, we must admit that we cannot reliably determine if PVS patients are unconscious. In fact, there is significant evidence that they retain some form of consciousness."

Do PVS Patients Suffer?

"Another disputed issue is whether or not PVS patients experience pain and suffering. Paul Schotsmans, a Dutch medical ethicist, notes that if PVS patients do experience pain this "would fundamentally change the discussion of the withdrawal or withholding of nutrition and hydration....While Schotsmans at least acknowledged the medical controversy in this area, the MSTF did not: "The perceptions of pain and suffering are conscious experiences; unconsciousness, by definition, precludes these experiences." Since it has concluded that PVS patients are unconscious, they also "cannot experience pain and suffering." However, the MSTF did note that the pain response in newborns does not involve the cerebral cortex, which it took to be the primary locus of damage in PVS. It logically follows that PVS patients have the same potential to experience pain and suffering as newborns."

A Christian Argument for Withholding Food and Fluids

He [Peter Emmet, Christian physician] stated that the image of God is present in all humans who have the capacity to image God, seen as some level of relational and rational abilities. In a subsequent article, he claimed that a patient in PVS "is no longer the image of God because physiological life, permanently devoid of relationality and cognition, is not adequate to be imago Dei."

Robert V. Rakestraw developed this argument further. For him, to be an image of God "presupposes some capacity, either actual or at least potential, for self-awareness and self-direction, for relationships and for the exercise of authority over creation." He concluded, "A body without neocortical functioning cannot image God . . . Neocortical destruction is both a necessary and sufficient condition for declaring an individual dead theologically."

"All of these arguments are based on the assumption that a patient in PVS is unconscious and has no potential for cognition or awareness. However, we have shown how precarious this assumption is. Even if a patient shows no evidence of consciousness, there may still be some form of consciousness present. Even if the cerebral cortex is destroyed, medical evidence shows that other areas of the brain are involved in cognition and awareness. Even if there is no consciousness present now, that does not imply there is no potential for consciousness."

The Image of God

"Using an analogy from agriculture, this passage encourages us to continue scattering our seed even though we can't know which will grow (Eccl 11:6). We must continue to act in the face of uncertainty, basing our hope and security on God's grace. Similarly, we have no idea if feeding those in PVS will "succeed." Yet we must at least give the body the opportunity to show us the amazing power of God. It is the very tenacity of the human body to go on living which seems frustrating with PVS patients. But by refusing to feed them, we are placing our hope in death, not in God's grace. As attractive and merciful as death may seem, it remains our enemy (1 Cor 15:26)."

Practical Problems with Abstract Concepts

" There is naturally some alienation between us and those in conditions we do not experience or understand. This is very pronounced with those in PVS. But we can alienate them even more when we classify them abstractly. Even the word "vegetative" in PVS alienates them from us. God has reached across the alienation between us and him. We are similarly called to reach out to the strangers of the world, even those around whom we feel uncomfortable (2 Cor 5:16-21). As we attempt to image him truthfully, we ought to reach across the barriers to those in PVS. Our concern should be how we can act as neighbors towards these patients who are strangers to us in profound ways. In doing so, we may be surprised that they respond more like an image of God than our abstract speculation might predict."

"For example, when PVS patients in one nursing home were treated more like persons, they responded accordingly. Often the simplest things made the biggest differences. In most institutions PVS patients continually lie in bed in the same room. As the director of this home stated, "We have found that adequate seating has improved awareness and arousal. . . . Our first object is to get them sitting up. It is amazing the response this produces. Body tone improves, head control appears. They look around and may focus on objects or companions."

"The observations of people working with PVS patients suggest that the notion that they are no longer persons or images of God is wrong. The fact that just one patient regained consciousness after three years in PVS makes it clear that we ought not argue that these people are no longer images of God. It is an arbitrary classification based on a judgment that this form of life is not worth living. Instead, we ought to treat them as images of God, which would minimally involve physical, relational and spiritual sustenance. This means giving them food and fluids, spending time with them, interacting with them, and praying and reading Scripture with them."

The Importance of Protection

"Human history is littered with the tragedies of slavery, racism, sexism and Nazism. These witness to what can happen when some people view others as less than fully persons, or unworthy of life. Many accept abortion because they do not view the unborn as persons. By the same classification, some no longer feel an obligation to feed and hydrate patients who would otherwise remain alive. How broadly will this classification extend? At the time of writing, the United States Supreme Court was considering hearing a case involving the withdrawal of artificially administered food and fluids from an incompetent, but conscious patient.[89] Some already argue that advanced Alzheimer's patients are former persons and should be allowed to die. Infanticide is defended by others by claiming that young infants are non-persons."

Conclusion

God has responded to the tragedy of fallen human life by continuing to sustain us in spite of the fact that we often do not respond to his love. He too has gotten frustrated with the lack of responsiveness (Hos 11:5-9; Matt 23:37). He must at times wonder if any trace of his image remains in us when we consistently refuse to act as we ought. Yet he continues to love us (1 John 4:9-10)."

Entire article:

Responding to Patients in the Persistent Vegetative State

Alert! Need some of the troll be gone on the Oprah message board for Terri.

http://boards.oprah.com/WebX?12@85.bVibbAiKlGS.42@.f0049ba/539!view=C&loc=.f0049ba/539">http://boards.oprah.com/WebX?12@85.bVibbAiKlGS.42@.f0049ba/539!view=C&loc=.f0049ba/539

Two Central Florida lawmakers seek
to change state's right-to-die laws

Sunday, November 16th
Two Central Florida lawmakers think it's time
to change the state's right-to-die laws,
primarily because of the Terri Schiavo case.

A law dealing with the Pinellas womanâ€™s feeding tube, Terri's Law,
moved quickly through a special session last month. The law
gave Governor Jeb Bush the power to overrule a court's decision
to have the tube removed.

However, House members Frank Attkisson and John Stargel
think that's not enough. They've drafted additional bills, one of
which would give doctors more protection from lawsuits for not
carrying out patients' wishes. Another would give courts more
authority to replace a patient's guardian if there are objections
from other family members.

Terri Schiavo has been in what some doctors call a "persistent
vegetative state" since 1990.

From your post above:

"For example, when PVS patients in one nursing home were treated more like persons, they responded accordingly. Often the simplest things made the biggest differences.

In most institutions PVS patients continually lie in bed in the same room. As the director of this home stated, "We have found that adequate seating has improved awareness and arousal. . . . Our first object is to get them sitting up. It is amazing the response this produces. Body tone improves, head control appears. They look around and may focus on objects or companions."

We have to get Terri out into the sunshine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

maybe MS wants her to die before she exceeds her predicted life expectancy, as that would tend to cast doubt on the diagnosis of bulemia as cause for her collapse.

Dental exams are not indicative of anorexia or bulemia.
She had no abnormal labs the night of admission, except the potassium and blood sugar. All else was normal. NO HEART ATTACK.

And when MS comes back on here to dispute this, just remember, he is a nurse now.

The 2nd District Court of Appeal issued an indefinite stay late Friday, hours after a lower judge lifted another stay.
"Michael Schiavo now must explain to the state appeals court by Tuesday why his challenge should be on a fast track."

Hammerin these elected and appointed officials is having an effect. Anybody who wants emails FL, contact me, please.

Thank you Mr. Drobot. I assume the new page isn't there yet, right?

I believe he wants her dead because she may remember something or an examination of her body will tell what actually happened to cause her condition.

Oh, that poor man! The part about tears on his face just broke my heart. I pray he will continue to recover.
Thanks for sharing.

That is hilarious! I hope it is effective......

Perhaps people would like to call Bushes office, Ashcroft, Bob Marshall, etc. to let them know that not only has Terri been denied rehabilitation for 10 years which is against the law but that after Terri got hydration and sustenance this last time that she is still being denied the rehab. Ask them what are they doing about it. Report back what you find out.

Done that. You are welcome to file complaints as well. When we were all hacked, I lost much of my addresses, phone numbers, and such. However, I can track the info down again. It will take a couple days.
Meantime, email Bernie McCabe and demand a criminal and grand jury investigation.
berniemccabe@fdle.state.fl.us
Jeb.Bush@MyFlorida.com, AG Charlie Christ