Militants in Europe Openly Call for Jihad and the Rule of Islam

The New York Times ^ | April 26, 2004 | PATRICK E. TYLER and DON VAN NATTA Jr

[mrustow]

The authorities say that laws to protect religious expression and civil liberties have the result of limiting what they can do to stop hateful speech.

Bull; they're just cowards. What Justice Jackson said applies to the Brits as well as to us, and they don't even have a First Amendment: "The Constitution is not a suicide pact."

[Redleg Duke]

Time to take out the trash.

[SauronOfMordor]

The Turks besieged Vienna in 1683.

Until they were defeated on September 11, 1683. Think they're still a little sore about that anniversary?

[navyblue]

What is your experience? Don't tell me "The Navy", because that's not "travelling the world". What experience do you have as a civilian?

My time was spent over several years from the time that Jakarta was called Batavia. Mostly with commercial companies, sometimes for the oil industry. Egypt, Bahrain, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Pakistan, Malaysia, Indonesia, Phillipines and a few more. Each time was only for a few days, but if I had to encapsulate it, I would say six months to a year. Yes, I have spent some time in the military too. Does that make it irrellevant?

Good enough?

[priceofreedom]

ping for later

[Eighth Square]

Actually they just have to be declared unacceptable. A modest government decree could sound something like this: "After careful consideration, we have concluded that Muslims, in general, are unstable and a tad wacky. Therefore, as of May 1, 2004 it will be unlawful to practice the Muslim religion in the United States of America. All followers of that religion will not be allowed to reside in, or visit, the USA or any of it's territories. Goodbye and have a nice day."

[Barlowmaker]

Is it possible you were disliked because you are dislikable?

[quant5]

Yes, agreed with some of it. This is very true. It took 2 big bombs to convince Emperor Hirohito that he was not a "god".

The bad news is that is does not take standing armies of millions or hundreds of thousands to take out whole cities any longer. Whereas the Germans and Japanese had difficult, yet obtainable goal this war is not a winnable victory to the terrorists, only death and loss, more death and loss.

The solution we pursued in Afghanistan was a success in many ways. Go in on the ground and destroy the infrastructure. This will need to happen with Syria, Iran and North Korea. As the US follows this strategy, the bigger geopolitical powers (especially China) who help fund these entities to weaken us and get us spread militarily will become directly involved.

I will save the tinfoil hat speak as much as possible, but this looks more like a bigger, war plan rather than a suicidal bunch of thugs fighting a losing battle.

[Clemenza]

I know a lovely (in many ways) lass from London who is of East Indian ancestry who is just as English as Tony Blair, albeit prettier than Mrs. Blair. The Moose-limbs are an entirely different story.

[cyborg]

Some are nitpickers when coming to racial purity. How are people supposed to assilimate into English culture if people won't ever see them as being Brits? A lot of these debates with the muslims is because their religious life/culture doesn't take well to assimilation. BTW, there are many white muslims and they fit in about as much as their more brown tinted kin. Some of the old tossers rather have skinheads than assimilated Pakistanis.

[Former Proud Canadian]

To get this discussion back on track, the internment of "enemy aliens" has happened several times in the United States. The most famous example is the civil war when the much venerated Lincoln suspended habeous corpus and jailed politicians, newspaper publishers, just about anybody who opposed his war effort. During WWII, of course, internment camps housed Japanese, German, and Italian sympathizers in Canada and the US. There is precedence and it can happen again.

[zimdog]

"I have Muslim business associates whom I trust and admire, and consider good friends. I've broken bread with them, met their wives and children. Anyone who proposes to line them up and shoot them, because they are practicing Muslims, will have to go through me first. "

---

This is the attitude that makes America great. I support your stand and should the horrible time ever come, I'll be with you defending your friends.

I'm sick of the argument so common on these threads (however quickly the comments are pulled) that advocate the murder of my friends, millions of American citizens and one-fifth of the world's people. It's our duty as Americans to stand up against tyranny and defend ourselves against all enemies, foreign and domestic and without regard to religious differences. If that means I'm against "Muslisms" who threaten and kill Christians, so be it. If that means I'm against "Christians" who threaten and kill Muslims, so be it.

[zimdog]

Not just Japanese "sympathizers," of course...

To try to tie two discussions together, "ethnic" Japanese were imprisioned for no reason other than their background. Citizens, some second, third and fourth generation Americans who were fully "assimilated" (which is a fairly ridiculous notion when you think about fourth generation American families in a country full of immigrants) and still seen as different.

[cyborg]

I know people who are 'muslims in name only',etc. I agree with you.

[Barlowmaker]

Nobody can argue that Islam badly needs a reformation.

That will occur, in my opinion, when Muslims begin to enjoy the fruits of freedom, security and prosperity. The extremists will become quickly marginalized when they no longer are useful to the despots who oppress and loot their people and nations.

zimdog, thanks for the support in a previous post. It's almost bizarre that opposition to the concept of indiscriminate genocide needs to be articulated ... and subsequently defended.

The "Kill them All" sentiment is either silly "I'm a real hardaa$$" Internet one upsmanship, or more contemptibly, an active campaign to discredit conservatives and blow up support for this vital mission.

I have a sense that the people most eager to "rubblize" Fallujah with MOABs or nukes are folks who don't want us in Iraq at all. They just don't have the basic integrity to reveal their isolationist appeasement ideology.

[nuconvert]

Thanks for the ping.

Well said, both of you.

[nuconvert]

Ping

And ping to #108

[nuconvert]

BTW - Welcome to FR

[Barlowmaker]

Thank you for the welcome. It's the second welcome on this thread (first was "Grow a pair newbie"). :-)

My first post here was in reaction to the "Kill them All" sentiment after the desecration of the four security contractors in late March.

Reactions like that are so counter-productive to our success in Iraq, so in sync with the overkill the terror agents wish to achieve from these brutal high-profile events, that it sometimes seems a small vocal minority of folks here want Bush and America to fail in this mission.

[Billthedrill]

Welcome to FR. Please forgive the heat - a lot of people understand that we are at war with a shadowy subset of Islam and don't want to take the chance that the ones who are not at war with aren't simply lying about it. After 3000 dead in NY I cut 'em some slack, and I consider them friends even though we disagree on this matter.

But they're wrong here. What is actually happening in Islam is that a small, violent, fanatical, and very militant strain of it has been fantastically enriched by oil wealth and unleashed on an otherwise reasonably pacific community, in an autocratic culture with no real control over the ones with the weapons. It isn't as if "decent" Muslims haven't fought back, they have, most recently in Algeria and Egypt, and they've been slaughtered for their efforts. The militants are now enough of a problem to justify the state-level intervention that the United States has belatedly offered, and I would defend our Iraq policy on that account to any critic in the world.

For those who are convinced that they're all out to get us, I have two offerings - first, that it simply isn't true historically; for four centuries or so it hasn't been Moslem aggression that's killed millions, it's been Marxist, and to a lesser degree pagan and Hindu, and Shinto, and yes, Christian. The difference now is that the bad boys have money, guns, and a zest for using both. The second thing I'd like to point out is that yes, the Koran does call for the forcible conversion of the infidel - unless the infidel is of the "Peoples of the Book" - i.e. Jewish or Christian, which religions share the founding documents claimed by Islam as well. This point means, and it has been pointed out by Muslim critics braver than I, that bin Laden and the Wahhabis and the Ayatollahs who have said specifically that there are no innocent, are in fact heretics and blasphemers. It is truly worth one's life to say it, but it's true.

All of this is caught up in a worldwide purging of the foulness and poisons that have accumulated during the Cold War - the ethnic hatreds suppressed by state force, the bipolar stability now shattered, the hatred for the winners by the losers and for the rich by the poor. If we can keep our heads through all this and not simply kill anyone that threatens we just might pull the world through all this. If not, nighttime, and I'm not joking.