Posted on 05/28/2004 12:59:23 PM PDT by jdege
BY LISA DONOVAN
Pioneer Press
Twin Cities law enforcement officials see the new handgun law that takes effect today as the start of a cultural change that requires officers and others to get used to seeing law-abiding residents carrying firearms.
From officers making traffic stops to the influx of 911 calls from residents concerned about someone with a gun sticking out of a purse, police and the public are in for a learning curve that may take months, said St. Paul and Minneapolis police officials and others.
"I think the biggest thing is going to be, cops are trained to be observers, and if they start to see more and more guns on people, that will take some getting used to," said John Delmonico, who heads the Minneapolis police union.
It may come as a surprise, too, that the law does not require a permit holder to conceal the weapon, and that may generate more 911 calls, St. Paul Police Chief William Finney predicts.
"The law doesn't say they have to be concealed, it says it could be on or about their person, so you're going to have people carrying their pistol in a holster, hanging on their hip like the cowboys used to," Finney said. "We're anticipating more people carrying a gun partially concealed or concealed, and they're going to be some other people out there seeing this and feel their safety is threatened and they're going to call police."
The law allows the state's 87 sheriffs to grant permits to any law-abiding applicant who is at least 21 years old and has completed a gun-safety course.
Already the state has about 12,000 permit holders, and predictions are that figure could expand to as many as 80,000 over the next several years. That increase means police will have to adapt to an armed public.
Florida's 1987 conceal-and-carry law changed little about the way law enforcement conducted business, said Jim Spearing, lobbyist for the union that represents about 30,000 law enforcement officers statewide.
"The cops in this region of the country don't fear an armed populace. Say you're stopped and you've got a gun in the car (you say) 'I've got a permit, I've got a .45,' and then you're going to put your hands on the dash."
The State Patrol is working on a policy that will guide its troopers through a traffic stop.
"We worked on a couple of new scenarios with rookies handling car stops with permit holders, where someone says, 'I have a gun and I have a permit' and you're (the trooper) standing outside their car door. What do you do? I don't have the answer," said Sgt. Al Freng, with the State Patrol's training academy.
Freng said the patrol is planning for instances when a permit holder is stopped on suspicion of drunken driving.
"It puts the trooper into a bad situation. It may be a nonviolent, routine stop, and this person may no longer appreciate you being there. And now they're armed," Freng said.
It's possible police may add guns to their list of questions about drugs and alcohol, though a recent court ruling may prohibit that.
For Ramsey County Sheriff Bob Fletcher, the pool of applicants will answer the question of how law enforcement officers adapt to the new law.
"Once we know who we're dealing with is it all 50-year-old men? Is it all guys who are 25 years old?" Fletcher said. "The demographic stuff will give us a sense of the type of people we're dealing with."
For now, law enforcement officials are offering armed permit holders a bit of advice in the event they are pulled over.
First of all, don't make any sudden movements and identify yourself immediately as a permit carrier and say where your gun is located, said Lt. Col. Steve Mengelkoch, assistant chief of the State Patrol. And whatever you do, keep your hands in view.
Finally, wait for the trooper or officer's next instructions.
"The safety of the officer and the motorist is utmost," Mengelkoch said.
Let them pay for it.
Texas doesn't have open-carry?
AZ does, but I don't think it's usually a good idea to let everyone know that I am armed.
Nope, until Bush signed the CHL law here in the mid 90's, it was impossible to carry at all in Texas.
In AZ we need a permit for concealed carry, but anyone who can own a gun can carry openly. I see it at least once a week.
Whenever I am in a checkout line behind some guy wearing a pistol on his belt, though, I think about how easy it would be to just hit him with a bottle and take the weapon. That's why I stick with CCW unless I am going to the range.
They should get used to it. Armed people are free people.
I'd prefer concealed or open. Should be your choice I think, and probably have licenses for both.. One license to do either at your discretion.
Then eventually phase out licensing at all.
Typical teacher, ignorant and unprepared for real life. And yet, put in charge of teaching others how to deal with the real world.
I see no reason to tell the officer anything. Common sense tell you don't make sudden moves, keep your hand in plain view at all times. Besides police are taught to assume everyone is armed regardless.
The usual advice from trainers in MN is that you should answer truthfully if asked by an LEO, since this is required by law. And that if you're going to do something that would reveal your gun, like reaching for your wallet, you should inform an LEO in advance. And that after that, you'll have to decide for yourself.
I think he meant to say: "hanging on their hip like the police do"
sound advice
I personally believe that the tactical advantages of concealed carry (low profile, and hidden from view) outweigh those of open carry (faster draw and a possible deterrence).
However, there are also 'political and social' ramifications that should be considered.
If more people open carried, then the police and general public would be far more acclimated to the concept of an armed public. This makes it more difficult to pass gun control, and it increases the number of people that are exposed to the gun culture, in a positive fashion.
How about this:
1) Stop acting as tax collectors for the state, and only make stops when you have probable cause or reasonable suspicion that a *real* crime has been committed.
2) Stop acting like wimps. A Free people have every Right to be armed, and the sight of an armed American should not be reason for cops to be afraid. Unless they just committed a felony or are strung out on drugs, it shouldn't matter if they are armed or not.
Well, we need to change all gun laws in this country (esp. California) with the 18,000+ suspected al quaeda operatives in this country illegally. So many of our military is overseas, our borders are wide open, And we must be able to protect ourselves. Our Congress, has failed to protect us. Quite frankly, I am a little afraid of guns, because too many hot heads and medicated people around, but I would like to protect my family in an emergency situation.
California's gun laws do suck, but if you live in a rural county with a decent sheriff, you can probably get a carry permit.
And if you can get one, there are very few places in CA that are "off-limits" for carrying. That's probably the only area where CA gun laws are actually better than those is most states (other states have far more "off-limit" places).
Being buddies with the local cops is no way to run a system.
Hw finally retired, and we have a new Sheriff who has a "will issue" attitude. If you don't have a criminal background, he will approve your permit. Notable...because he is a staunch DEM. Surprising, huh?
Even the dems are starting to realize that being for gun control is a quick way to lose an election.
When he was campaigning, I heard him on radio talk shows several times. He was very vague about his leanings as far as permits; I actually thought he would be just as tough as the old Sheriff (his boss).
Once he was elected, it was immediately clear that he completely supports the right of citizens to carry. I think he hid his true inclinations so that his "base" wouldn't sit home. I hope he is re-elected; I swear he is to the right of some "Republicans" on the issue...and frankly, for Sheriff, it's about the only issue that matters. I'm sure he's really annoyed some of his Democrat base.
I can't believe I just said that I hoped a "D" would be re-elected. That's a first, and probably, a last.
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