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THE "New" CBS BUSH DOCUMENTS: Let's do some investigating
www.freerepublic.com | September 9, 2004

Posted on 09/08/2004 9:16:02 PM PDT by Howlin

These are the NEW documents "discovered" by CBS with conjunction with their Ben Barnes expose/confessional tonight regarding George Bush's National Guard service.

They've gotten some interesting comments on the Live Thread, so I thought I'd give them their own thread so you people out there with the knowledge can dissect them for their accuracy/truth/existence.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Extended News; Free Republic; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: Alabama; US: District of Columbia; US: Georgia; US: Texas; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: 2004; alabama; barnes; bush; cbs; danrather; dubya; edwards; election; gwb; kerry; killian; ltbush; memogate; napalminthemorning; rather; rathergate; texas
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To: Wild_Bill_8881
WE didn't catch up with all that fancy admin stuff, at least in flying outfits, until a lot later then that

We had admin types in Korat, Thailand, 1972, 17 Wild Weasel Squadron.

251 posted on 09/08/2004 11:45:55 PM PDT by AndrewC (I am a Bertrand Russell agnostic, even an atheist.</sarcasm>)
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To: AndrewC

Much of the evidence presented here is very compelling.

But, if (I assume that it is) the bottom signature is the true one, this is INDEED A FORGERY (assuming that no clerk signed it for the Colonel).

Good catch! (FR Investigators R You).


252 posted on 09/08/2004 11:53:09 PM PDT by Diddley (Hey Kerry: The swiftees are comin' for ya')
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To: spyone; Howlin; Congressman Billybob; Buckhead

253 posted on 09/08/2004 11:56:54 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: rolling_stone
the rest of the memos are not written on weekends...did the Commander work 6 or 7 days a week?

Guard and Reseve CO's are most always full time employees. They are technically civilians during the normal workweek, even though they wear AF or Army uniforms. During weekend drills they are reservists/guardsmen performing inactive duty training. Only one weekend a month is generally a "drill" weekend. (Sometimes they have "make up" weekends, once or twice a year)

254 posted on 09/08/2004 11:59:00 PM PDT by El Gato (Federal Judges can twist the Constitution into anything.. Or so they think.)
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To: Paleo Conservative
77027 is the correct zip code as of the late 60s-early 70s. That zip code was used on the official records as well.
255 posted on 09/09/2004 12:01:15 AM PDT by conservative in nyc
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To: Paleo Conservative

Someone needs to go to the main library in downtown Houston and check Polk's City Directories (archives) for the years 1971 and 1972 re the Longmont address. Also check pertinent names while at it.


256 posted on 09/09/2004 12:03:37 AM PDT by Cai Della
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To: Southack

Looks like a pretty good match to the Times New Roman on the IBM Executive Fonts you posted.


257 posted on 09/09/2004 12:05:24 AM PDT by adaven (John Kerry changes positions more often than a Nevada prostitute!)
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To: Cai Della

Only problem is that the White House spokesman apparently agreed that the memos were genuine, but the interpretation of their content was incorrect.


258 posted on 09/09/2004 12:08:07 AM PDT by Original Kamaaina
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To: AndrewC

The letters J - K - l and a are not the same


259 posted on 09/09/2004 12:14:26 AM PDT by Mo1 (FR NEWS ALERT .... John Kerry over dosed on Botox and thinks he's Bob KerrEy)
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To: Law is not justice but process

I just drove home and haven't seen the memo's, but two things jump out at me and I think they fit into your list, which I agree with.

No corrections and they appear to be proofread.

Everyone of us on this forum has expienced those problems along with spelliing errors.


260 posted on 09/09/2004 12:15:03 AM PDT by razorback-bert (go ahead and corrected my errors, I will just make some more)
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To: Robert A. Cook, PE
Anybody seriously think THEY'RE gonna play paperwork cover-your-ass games with undated memo's to unspecified people

Yes, I believe they would. ANG leadership positions are filled by full timers that (mostly) stay at the same base for decades. They are in fact as well as in effect, uniformed civilian bureaucrats. They are fighter pilots too of course, but the interpersonal dynamics are those of civilian bureaucrats.

261 posted on 09/09/2004 12:17:14 AM PDT by El Gato (Federal Judges can twist the Constitution into anything.. Or so they think.)
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To: Original Kamaaina

Pete Yost of AP is claiming the White House released the memos.

http://www.helenair.com/articles/2004/09/09/national/a01090904_07.txt

Is the another Bush crowd boos and Bush did nothing about it?


262 posted on 09/09/2004 12:18:32 AM PDT by nonkultur
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To: Wild_Bill_8881
Well that part that gets me is, who in the military hangs on to this kind of stuff, much less be able to actualy find it 30 some odd years later? come on the guys got out in 1973

He hasn't hung onto these for 30 years ... Killian died in 1984

263 posted on 09/09/2004 12:21:47 AM PDT by Mo1 (FR NEWS ALERT .... John Kerry over dosed on Botox and thinks he's Bob KerrEy)
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To: Wild_Bill_8881
heck they usually get heaved once a year or at least when the guy or his commander leaves

Remember this is the Guard, most folks stay around for a long, long time. Still, they don't keep minutia from private and mostly unofficial files for multiple decades.

264 posted on 09/09/2004 12:23:39 AM PDT by El Gato (Federal Judges can twist the Constitution into anything.. Or so they think.)
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To: Howlin; All
It's gonna start gettin' rough Freepers, so if you can help PLEASE click the boat:


Stay Strong,
Fuzzy122

265 posted on 09/09/2004 12:26:04 AM PDT by fuzzy122 (GBGB [God Bless George Bush] and the Armed Forces ... Arnold and Zell too!)
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To: Diddley
But, if (I assume that it is) the bottom signature is the true one, this is INDEED A FORGERY (assuming that no clerk signed it for the Colonel).

This is the tie breaker.

From the application for discharge.

Look at the "K" and the "ian"

266 posted on 09/09/2004 12:30:39 AM PDT by AndrewC (I am a Bertrand Russell agnostic, even an atheist.</sarcasm>)
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To: thchronic

Look carefully at the discrepancy in spacing between the "NDU" of MEMORANDUM from the forgery to the listed Times New Roman Font below in that post.

The forgery has tight spacing. The actual font shows a skip in spacing between the "D" and the "U" (you knew that I had to throw DU in here, right?!).

3 Full Legislative Days Left Until The AWB Expires

267 posted on 09/09/2004 12:39:15 AM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: AndrewC

This is going to blow up BIG in CBS's face and demolish whatever credibility they had left. I can't believe they thought they would actually be able to get away with this.


268 posted on 09/09/2004 12:40:31 AM PDT by WestVirginiaRebel (John Kerry was a Ramblin' Man, not a Running Man, on the last night of the RNC.)
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To: AndrewC
Look at the "K" and the "ian"

You are so right. There are many differences: thickness of letters, slant, "sharpness" of letters, relative clearness of letters, and so on.

269 posted on 09/09/2004 12:40:52 AM PDT by Diddley (Hey Kerry: The swiftees are comin' for ya')
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Plus the relative heights of the letters, and the "i" dots.


270 posted on 09/09/2004 12:47:51 AM PDT by Diddley (Hey Kerry: The swiftees are comin' for ya')
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To: Howlin

ping


271 posted on 09/09/2004 12:49:48 AM PDT by Oblongata
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To: nonkultur

That's not true.

If the White House has released them, why wouldn't everybody have them?


272 posted on 09/09/2004 12:52:36 AM PDT by Howlin (I'm mad as Zell)
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To: Howlin

Exactly! I swear AP is not even trying to have a semblance of truth anymore.


273 posted on 09/09/2004 1:02:59 AM PDT by nonkultur
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To: Howlin

I mentioned earlier that the format for the letter wasn't the type that I have seen since I joined the USAF in 1981. You can see in the sample letter above that the signature block used to be left justified. Also, the old memos didn't have "MEMORANDUM" at the top in all caps. The USAF changed to the new style memo format around 1992- 1995 (to the best of my recollection). We changed to match other services, so there is a possibility that the “MEMORANDUM” style was used in ’72 in the TXANG. FWIW

274 posted on 09/09/2004 1:04:24 AM PDT by TankerKC (R.I.P. Spc Trevor A. Win'E American Hero)
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To: Howlin; BamaDi
Look at post 205. It has the “old” style with the left justified signature blocks and no “MEMORANDUM” at the top…just like my old personal files. So why was Lt Col Kilian using a format that the USAF didn’t adopt until the 90s?

Of course, I’m just a logistics weenie..maybe we have a Freeper with some USAF admin experience.

275 posted on 09/09/2004 1:09:49 AM PDT by TankerKC (R.I.P. Spc Trevor A. Win'E American Hero)
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To: TankerKC

Compare any of "Bush's" memos to John Kerry's Transfer To Standby Reserve document, dated 14 August 1972 (Page 2).
http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Transfer_To_Standby_Reserve.pdf

John Kerry's document is dated 14 August 1972 (same time period), and has a fixed width Courier font.


276 posted on 09/09/2004 1:16:55 AM PDT by igoramus987
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To: Seaplaner
For decades Gunga Dan has been claiming he's a Marine. Supposedly he was known to physically throw his weight around the fey limpwrists of CBS.

In two tries he never made it through boot camp. Loser/liar.
277 posted on 09/09/2004 1:18:30 AM PDT by Leisler (Kerry, release your Department of Defense SF 180)
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To: TankerKC; Mo1; Texasforever

Look at this:

A spokeswoman for "60 Minutes," Kelli Edwards, declined to say exactly how the new documents were obtained other than that CBS News understood they had been taken from Killian's "personal office file." In addition to the order to Bush to report for a physical, the documents include various memos from Killian describing his conversations with Bush and other National Guard officers about Bush's attempts to secure a transfer to Alabama. Killian died in 1984.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A6693-2004Sep8?language=printer

And this:

The new documents surfaced as the Bush administration released for the first time the president's personal flight logs, which have been the focus of repeated archival searches and Freedom of Information Act requests dating to the 2000 presidential campaign. The logs show that Bush stopped flying in April 1972 after accumulating more than 570 hours of flight time between 1969 and 1972, much of it on an F-102 interceptor jet.

White House officials have said there was no reason for Bush to take the annual physical required of fighter pilots because there were no suitable planes for him to fly in Alabama, where he applied for "substitute training" to replace his required service with the Texas National Guard.


278 posted on 09/09/2004 1:29:42 AM PDT by Howlin (I'm mad as Zell)
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To: Congressman Billybob
The reason to think that these documents were written (or forged, it remains to be established) on a typewriter using a ribbon. Work from a computer printer would not show a difference in weight or heaviness of different letters, which these documents do.

Actually, dot-matrix and daisy wheel printers can have variations in character weights given that each letter is manually smashed onto the page through an ink and hammer method, just as a typewriter does.

279 posted on 09/09/2004 1:31:47 AM PDT by RatherBiased.com
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To: everyone

I think those documents are not forgeries, because I recognize that typeface. They are not the type of document that would be even worth forging, in my opinion.

Didn't I read here tonight somewhere that what the documents state was standard operating procedure for people who didn't want to fly anymore?

This looks like nothing at all to me, except desperation on the part of that shameful man, John Kerry.


280 posted on 09/09/2004 1:43:46 AM PDT by Technical Editor
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To: Congressman Billybob
Your point about corrections is well-taken. The documents I had declassified for a book was the WW II correspondence of Secretary of the Interior, Harold Ickes. We got access to microfilm copies of the carbon paper originals kept in the Secretary's office. ALL the documents showed evidence of erasing and retyping the corrections in the original and the carbons.

Thanks for the info. That fits with what I was thinking here. I just find it hard to believe that a military officer would be such a flawless typist.

One question for you, since you seem to know a bit on a lot of varied subjects. Was the term "CYA", as one memo mentions, a commonly used term back then? I never heard of the phrase until the 90s myself.

281 posted on 09/09/2004 2:14:18 AM PDT by NYCVirago
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To: NYCVirago

bookmark


282 posted on 09/09/2004 2:28:01 AM PDT by boxerblues
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To: Howlin; All

For the life of me, I cannot remember when or where I saw this, but I will throw it out.

A month or so ago, I saw a report on one of the networks about these "new" documents. I think (but not sure) Killian was portrayed as either a Bush friend or supporter (or maybe just a Republican). The report focused on Mrs. Killian and why she is releasing the documents after all of these years.

Mrs. Killian has an axe to grind and I cannot remember what it was. Did anyone else see this or have any background to add regarding Mrs. Killian?


283 posted on 09/09/2004 2:39:30 AM PDT by Protect the Bill of Rights (What part of SHALL PASS NO LAW do they not understand?)
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To: boxerblues

BTTT and Bookmark.


284 posted on 09/09/2004 2:44:17 AM PDT by Carolinamom
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To: oreolady
What a great day that would be, Blather CAUGHT at faking or not properly vetting fake copies.

Forget President Bush for a moment....wouldn't it be great if this could be the story that brought Rather down?

Sweet.

285 posted on 09/09/2004 2:51:28 AM PDT by Protect the Bill of Rights (What part of SHALL PASS NO LAW do they not understand?)
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To: Howlin

ping


286 posted on 09/09/2004 3:31:50 AM PDT by southland (Alabama for BUSH)
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To: Protect the Bill of Rights

I vaguely remember there was an article about some people who perceived that they were insulted by the Bush family...not sent an invitation or something. I have no idea if this is the story you are referring to. I do remember that the supposed comment to these people was very unlike the Bush family.


287 posted on 09/09/2004 3:38:11 AM PDT by Miss Marple
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To: McGavin999
Gosh, now I'm gonna have nightmares again! I first started out in medical transcription on that machine. We could use correction tape if we had a typo, but if the doctor changed his mind in the middle of a sentence and then started over, we had to redo the freakin' report.

I can't believe I survived those years.

288 posted on 09/09/2004 4:09:52 AM PDT by IrishRainy
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To: Miss Marple

Look what I found..........

http://www.enotalone.com/books/0688174418.html

A Review of President Bush's Book, A CHARGE TO KEEP
Hardcover - 17 November, 1999
Note the name of the person at the end of this review.
__________
Product Description:

The political biography, complete with life-altering turning points and a political philosophy for leading the United States into greatness, has become obligatory for those running for president--just one more thing to check off the "to do" list on the way to the Oval Office. A Charge to Keep is George W. Bush's offering: a light and breezy book mixing personal and political remembrances that proves heavy on chatty anecdotes and light on policy prescriptions. If you read the last chapter you'll sort of learn where George W. stands on most things, but still not really discern how he would actually run the country. There are no revelations, either personal or political: Bush's wild side and youthful indiscretions, like stealing a Christmas wreath from a New Haven hotel for his Yale fraternity, are touched on lightly when he discusses them at all. A Charge to Keep is so upbeat and positive, in describing the Houston woman to whom he was engaged in college and from whom he "gradually drifted apart," Bush says simply: "I still think the world of her, and our parting was friendly. We were very young, we lived in different places, and we gradually developed different lives."

George W. has been labeled a lightweight by some; A Charge to Keep will do nothing to dispel that notion. It features lots of Bush family memories and numerous mentions of George W.'s famous parents, including letters from his president father. George W. has followed closely in his father's footsteps, attending the same prep school and college. He even belonged to the same secret society at Yale, Skull and Bones. From college it was on to flight school and the Texas Air National Guard, Harvard Business School, and then (again, like his father) the Texas oil business and politics. George W. seems mostly in sync with his father on policy issues as well. "A thousand points of light" is transformed slightly to become "compassionate conservative," which pops up in the final chapter more than 10 times. Readers will come away knowing many of the experiences and events that have helped shaped George W., but his future is still an open book. --Linda Killian


289 posted on 09/09/2004 4:18:46 AM PDT by Protect the Bill of Rights (What part of SHALL PASS NO LAW do they not understand?)
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To: Protect the Bill of Rights

Hmmmm. Do you ever get the idea that there is a whole other world of intrigue and in-fighting that we don't know about?


290 posted on 09/09/2004 4:21:48 AM PDT by Miss Marple
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To: Law is not justice but process

http://www.etypewriters.com/1966-composer-b.JPG

seems to indicate that certain Selectric models had the ability to use more than one type ball simultaneously. Anyone know if they could use differently sized ones at once?


291 posted on 09/09/2004 4:22:11 AM PDT by RatherBiased.com
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To: Protect the Bill of Rights

My post may be a false alarm--Linda may not be her name. More googling to do.


292 posted on 09/09/2004 4:34:33 AM PDT by Protect the Bill of Rights (What part of SHALL PASS NO LAW do they not understand?)
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To: NYCVirago
I am saying these documents are forgeries, run through a copier for 15 generations to make them look old.

I agree with you, and cannot believe that any person familiar with writing copy before the age of PCs, ie professional 'reporters' as old as Dan Rather, would not instantly see the difference.

293 posted on 09/09/2004 4:43:53 AM PDT by maica
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To: cohokie

Let's check the PO Box ownership records for that time....

These are just too perfectly written...

G


294 posted on 09/09/2004 4:52:59 AM PDT by GRRRRR ( Love America? Vote GOP...early and often...)
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To: GRRRRR
The addresses seem to match already released and authenticated paperwork (the authenticated paperwork was probably the source of information for the presumtive forger). The signatures, however, do not match already released paperwork. Anyone know any handwriting analysts? The signature on Bush's Application for Discharge is an authenticated version of Killian's signature. On that document, for instance, the pen moves down sharply at the end of the upper leg of the K. On the CBS documents the pen loops upward. Based on my experience with handwriting analysts, such a huge difference in pen strokes is almost impossible. There are many other dissimilarities as well.

I think the authentication issue is important, not as a defensive move to protect Bush, but as an offensive move to discredit his detractors. If we can prove this is a fake, the Kerry Campaign and their willing accomplices in the press will be permanently and completely discredited. It could ice the election for Bush.
295 posted on 09/09/2004 5:05:14 AM PDT by Law is not justice but process
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To: Mad Dawgg

They are still all monospaced fonts - a word consisting of 6 upper case "W"s will be exactly the same length as a word consisting of 6 lower case "l"s. Not so with a proportionally spaced font, which slides the characters together based on their width. That is an excellent bit of research to find those reference scans.


296 posted on 09/09/2004 5:18:34 AM PDT by Buckhead
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To: Law is not justice but process
Another point, does anyone else suspect the Democrats have been forced by Bush's recent advance in the polls into releasing the October surprise about a month early?

And does anyone else entertain the possibility that Rather has been "punked" by some devious Bushie? I mean, if Rather were found to be proffering forgeries his credibility goes to zero. It would be a nice job, if we did it.
297 posted on 09/09/2004 5:23:24 AM PDT by Law is not justice but process
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To: Miss Marple

Re: my post #292
I still have not confirmed the name of the Merry Widow, but I happened upon some interesting info regarding something which may explain motive...

Revenge? Money?

From Harris County Texas Probate Real Property Inquiry System

KILLIAN JERRY B EST
INTERNAL REVENUE SERV
011890 [Date]
T/L INSTR

KILLIAN JERRY B ETAL
INTERNAL REVENUE SERV
082889 [Date]
T/L INSTR

2 of several listed


298 posted on 09/09/2004 5:48:47 AM PDT by Protect the Bill of Rights (What part of SHALL PASS NO LAW do they not understand?)
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To: Protect the Bill of Rights

Do those indicate liens on the estate property?


299 posted on 09/09/2004 5:51:49 AM PDT by Miss Marple
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To: All

Someone may have already pointed this out, but I think it is worth carefully looking at the language in the memos. I have not read all of the memos, but someone said one of the memos uses the term "feedback". When did that cliche come into general use?


300 posted on 09/09/2004 5:54:10 AM PDT by Drawsing (It is not honorable to seek one's own honor.....Proverbs.)
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