A Few of FR's Finest...Every Day...06-22-05...A Ten Commandment Victory?

Aquamarine

[Aquamarine]

A Few of FR's Finest....Every Day

Free Republic made its debut in September, 1996, and the forum was added in early 1997.   Over 100,000 people have registered for posting privileges on Free Republic, and the forum is read daily by tens of thousands of concerned citizens and patriots from all around the country and the world.

A Few of FR's Finest....Every Day was introduced on June 24, 2002. It's only a small room in JimRob's house where we can get to know one another a little better; salute and support our military and our leaders; pray for those in need; and congratulate those deserving. We strive to keep our threads entertaining, fun, and pleasing to look at, and often have guest writers contribute an essay, or a profile of another FReeper.

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We're having fun and hope you are!
~ Billie, Mama_Bear, Dutchess, Aquamarine, DollyCali ~

As the battle over the public display of the Ten Commandments in our courthouses continues, our nation is engaged in a controversy that will determine whether our laws will continue to rest upon the moral foundation of God's Word.

This month the Supreme Court is to rule on two Cases that will shape the future of our right to Publicly Acknowledge God.

Van Orden v. Perry and McCreary County v. ACLU of KY, will determine our legal bounds when it comes to displaying the Ten Commandment's on publicly-owned property. Rulings are expected by the end of June.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
WILL CHRISTIANITY BE COMPLETELY ERASED AS
A SIGNIFIGANT INFLUENCE IN AMERICAN LIFE?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In the Kentucky case, two county executives separately posted copies of the King James version of the Ten Commandments on the walls of their courthouses.

They were displayed among 11 frames of privately donated historical documents and symbols that helped form the basis of American law and government, including the Declaration of Independence. All but the Ten Commandments were secular in nature.

The American Civil Liberties Union objected and won at the federal appeals level. The counties then asked the Supreme Court to intervene.

In Texas, Thomas Van Orden, a self-described "religious pluralist," filed suit against the placement, with private funds, of a 6-foot-tall monument on the grounds of Austin's Capitol Building in 1961. It bears the words "Ten Commandments," a star of David, a symbol representing Christ and the words "I am the Lord thy God."

Van Orden says that, in allowing the monument, Texas crossed the line separating church and state by promoting "personal religious beliefs."

In a brief, he contends many religions reject the idea of a single God who lays down rules for human behavior.

"Even among religions that accept the Ten Commandments, there are significant differences in content of each religion's version of the Ten Commandments, said Van Orden. "The Texas Ten Commandments is virtually identical to the Protestant version."

He lost in a federal appeals court and petitioned to the Supreme Court. Opposing him is Texas governor Rick Perry.

The Bush administration and 26 state attorneys general filed a brief with the court supporting the Texas and Kentucky displays. No states publicly oppose it.

"The First Amendment was never intended to remove all religious expression from the public square," Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott said. "There is no doubt the Ten Commandments are a sacred religious text, but neither can we deny their significant impact on the history, culture and laws of Texas and the rest of the country."

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
WILL OUR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHT
TO "FREE EXERCISE" OF RELIGION
BE IGNORED ONCE AGAIN?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

DID YOU KNOW?
As you walk up the steps to the building which houses the U.S. Supreme Court you can see near the top of the building a row of the world's law givers and each one is facing one in the middle who is facing forward with a full frontal view ... it is Moses and he is holding the Ten Commandments!

As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors have the Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door.

As you sit inside the courtroom, you can see the wall, right above where the Supreme Court judges sit, a display of the Ten Commandments!

There are Bible verses etched in stone all over the Federal Buildings and Monuments in Washington, D.C.

DID YOU KNOW? James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of Our Constitution" made the following statement:

"We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

Fifty-two of the 55 founders of the Constitution were members of the established orthodox churches in the colonies.

Thomas Jefferson worried that the Courts would overstep their authority and instead of interpreting the law would begin making law an oligarchy the rule of few over many.

Every session of Congress begins with a prayer by a paid preacher, whose salary has been paid by the taxpayer since 1777.

The very first Supreme Court Justice, John Jay, said:

"Americans should select and prefer Christians as their rulers."

How, then, have we gotten to the point that everything we have done for 220 years in this country is now suddenly wrong and unconstitutional?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
WILL COMMON SENSE BE
RETURNING TO THE HIGH COURT?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Most of the above was gathered from
different sources then organized here.

03-29-05 ~ Hall of Fame #11

THIS WEEK'S THREADS 06-20-05....Military Monday 06-21-05....The American Idea (revisited)

Opinions by our own 'King of Ping' Every Thursday at the Finest The guy's good, folks!

[Aquamarine]

[Aquamarine]

(Graphic by Billie)

A few things to consider as the clock ticks
down on this very important decision.

[Aquamarine]

God Bless Our Military

Below are names of some of our FReepers' loved ones who are serving our country. If you have someone you would like to add, please address a post to Billie; Mama_Bear; Dutchess; Aquamarine; The Mayor, DollyCali and we will add their name to this list. As we pray for them, we pray also for all our nation's leaders, and military personnel, and their families and friends. May God hold them close to His heart.

~~~~~~~~~~   ~~~~~~~~~~

We ask Lord, that You guide the leaders of our great country in their hour of decision. The burden that has been placed on their shoulders is overwhelming. We ask that with Your infinite wisdom You guide them gently to the right decisions.

Please give us the strength, Lord, to get through each difficult day that faces each of us and our country. Lord, hold our troops in your loving hands. Protect them as they protect us. Bless them and their families for the selfless acts they perform for us in our time of need. I ask this in the name of Jesus, our Lord and Savior. Amen.

OhioWfan........................son mystery-ak..........son, husband Gogrammy................grandson Inspectorette...................son Blessed American..........nephew Slip18..........................nephew anniegetyourgun...........nephew Doug from Upland......son-in-law weldgophardline.....brotherinlaw Future Snake Eater..........cousin WaterDragon..son-in-law,grandson BeforeISleep...................son The Mayor........................niece LadyX.........................grandson fawn796.....................nephew ValerieUSA................2 sons Warrior Nurse...........active duty SK1 Thurman...........active duty David Osborne.........active duty fc2tomschermuly......active duty bkwells..................activve duty LongCut..................active duty Trish.......................active duty StarCMC..............brother Kramster.................stepson Atomic Conspiracy............half-brother....niece....nephew TexKat......son.....and stepson ODC-GIRL............active duty cookcounty................son Donaeus..............nephew thumperusn...........active duty katykelly..................son Notwithstanding.....active duty Lakeside................two sons Q6-God and twin brother...active duty cjk................active duty philman_36...........2 nephews Veloxherc.................active duty Its_me_K.E.T...............son mrstank...............husband Conspiracy Guy........two nephews eaglesiniowa...............son Don Simmons............active duty Leofl...............son bjcintennessee....son and niece campfollower...............fiance LakeLady....................nephew ProudAFDad ......................son MontanaCowgirlCop.........brother misty4jc........................husband mhking................cousin Old Sarge..................active duty Bykrbayb...........son Hope and Glory.............son ak_daddoo .........nephew Zechariah_8_13...brother-in-law and cousin nelibeli....................nephew bigghurtt..........active duty frankiep...............active duty El Gato.................nephew Socratic...............nephew

Pippin.......niece's husband Maigrey................cousin ladtx....................2 sons scubachick......husband gator girl............husband severa................husband, brother Hostel....................cousin MozartLover......son, nephew LBGA........................son SpookBrat........nephew and cousin Himyar.....................son boxerblues............2 sons the piper...................son sheeza...............husband kemathen7...........husband Tiffee4Bob.......boyfriend Diver Dave.......niece, nephew deadhead................cousin JimRobinson.....2 nephews Armymarinemom.....3 sons Consort..2 daughters,son-in-law Darheel..................niece dixie sass.............nephew BeAllYouCanBe.........son AgThorn...............2 sons homeschoolmama.......nephew kneezles.................son kimmie7..............brother Spruce..............daughter visualops.................cousin Dubya...................nephew SunflowerGal..........grandson AF_Blue.............active duty Skimask.................son RoseBear...........cousin's husband RepubMommy.................brother Alouette..................son american_ranger..............son auboy..................cousin spotbus1.................husband jamaly............brother in law wingnutx........active duty chena....................... son LUV W......................son painter....................... nephew Ladysmith.........nephew and friend's son tina07................soninlaw's friend Katydidnt............son Colorado Slim........ nephew Tapatio..........2 nephews CGblue.....Active Duty sneakers..................son SilentServiceCPOWife.......husband Walkenfree..........3 nephews ... ..2 grandsons, 1 granddaughter ariamne...................2 cousins DirtyHarryY2K......daughter and soninlaw Palladin..............grandson Gonzo....friend's son MississippyMuddy...................sister MississippyMuddy.....2 nephews jkphoto........nephew

[E Rocc]

James Madison never said the above quote. Even David Barton, who spread it, now admits he can't verify it. The furthest it's been traced back is an inspirational calendar from the late 50s.

Separationists don't want to remove all aspects of religion from public life. Indeed, the First Amendment protects the free exercise of religion right alongside the prohibition on Establishment. The Framers saw these restrictions on government as complementary. When government recognizes one faith as "better", the right to freely exercise others is threatened.

As for the Commandments, keep in mind that the "free exercise" clause of the First Amendment protects the right to break at least three of them.

-Eric

[Aquamarine]

James Madison never said the above quote. Even David Barton, who spread it, now admits he can't verify it. The furthest it's been traced back is an inspirational calendar from the late 50s.

Of course I can't prove that James Madison said the above quote nor can I prove that John Adams wrote the below in a letter to Thomas Jefferson. It's a matter of what we're willing to believe about our nations history.

“The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my religion” - John Adams, Nov. 4, 1816, letter to Thomas Jefferson. “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul. I don’t think we emphasize that enough these days.”

Separationists don't want to remove all aspects of religion from public life. Indeed, the First Amendment protects the free exercise of religion right alongside the prohibition on Establishment. The Framers saw these restrictions on government as complementary. When government recognizes one faith as "better", the right to freely exercise others is threatened. As for the Commandments, keep in mind that the "free exercise" clause of the First Amendment protects the right to break at least three of them.

The First Amendment prohibits the Federal Government from establishing a National Religion.

[Issaquahking]

The First Amendment prohibits the Federal Government from establishing a National Religion.


EXACTLY !!!

Shortest, most correct version I've seen in regard to this part of the first Amendment.

Hope that you, and all who come to the thread, have a great day!

[Aquamarine]

I just wish that the Framers were still around to clarify things for us. It's not just our math that has gotten fuzzy.

[E Rocc]

Of course I can't prove that James Madison said the above quote nor can I prove that John Adams wrote the below in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

I’m not familiar with this particular Adams letter, but I’ll assume that either the original still exists or that there is constant historical reference between the present and a time when it did.

The “Ten Commandments” quote is a different matter entirely. When Barton started spreading it, Madison scholars found it to contradict much of his verified works. They searched for it, couldn’t find it, and asked Barton for his source. When it couldn’t be traced earlier than the 1950s, he admitted that it could not be verified and, to his credit, asked that it not be used in debate. To his discredit, he originally accepted it because he wanted it to be real. It’s questionable at best, most likely false, and taints not only his entire body of work but any argument that uses it. Unfortunately, it’s spread all over the place. History is a factual study, and I’ve made a point of challenging it whenever I see it.

The First Amendment prohibits the Federal Government from establishing a National Religion.

True. Indeed, part of the reason for its adoption was to remove a possible point of contention between the several states, some of whom had Established religions. As an aside, Virginia did not, largely thanks to Madison and Jefferson. Indeed, Jefferson actively encouraged disestablishment in other states.

However, the Fourteenth Amendment has been interpreted as applying the restrictions of the Bill Of Rights upon all levels of government. While some still challenge this interpretation, it should be considered that if it were deemed necessary, an Amendment explicitly doing so would almost certainly be adopted.

-Eric

[The Mayor]

June 22, 2005

Christianity's Best Argument

Read:
1 Peter 3:13-17

Always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you. —1 Peter 3:15

Bible In One Year: 2 Kings 1-3

What's the best argument we can give those who ask why we have accepted Jesus as our Savior? How can we most persuasively bear witness to our faith?

"Always be ready," Peter urged, "to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you" (1 Peter 3:15). The Greek term for "reason" is apology. That doesn't mean a weak-kneed excuse; it means a convincing argument.

Philosopher William Alston of Syracuse University has written very helpful books in defense of the Christian faith. He has something to say that should encourage all of us: "The final test of the Christian scheme comes from trying it out in one's life, testing the promises the scheme tells us God has made, following in the way enjoined on us by the church, and seeing whether it leads to the new life of the Spirit."

Don't think that because you aren't a philosopher or a scholar that you can't be an apologist. You can bear witness to the truth and power of the gospel. Your life can be your own best argument—your best defense of your faith in Jesus Christ—to anyone who asks why you believe.

So put your faith into practice. Let people see the difference Jesus makes. —Vernon Grounds

O that my life may useful be
As I serve Jesus faithfully;
And may the world see Christ in me—
This is my earnest prayer. —Hess

People will listen to you carefully if they see you living faithfully.

FOR FURTHER STUDY
How Can I Break The Silence?

[DollyCali]

Oh Man Aqua.. this is ... is....well, tears in my eyes.. and a lump in my throat...and some anger in my "innards". WONDERFUL.

Outstanding thoughts & beautifully presented... the gold just glows with the shimmering of heaven's blessing???

I will be gone much of today. A good friend/uncle is having a 80th birthday & I am coordinating the "all day par-tay" He worked very hard to reelect GWB & is active as a polling judge & conservative constitionalist. (he is also a FREEPER)

group will be touring Stan Hwyet, the grounds, the butterfly exhibit & then pretty lavish picnic on the grounds.. Big group will dispense & Bill & I will do Oliver walk, go to the lake a short time & then take in a movie.

Of course JH2 is a priority, donchaknow... --- :-)

Happy Birthday #80 Bill !!! aka FReepere "Wheelbarrow"

[Aquamarine]

DID YOU KNOW? James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of Our Constitution" made the following statement:

"We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

Whether James Madison said those words or not the above was our Founders intent. Those words describe the true basis of a civilized society and without those guidelines chaos would reign. It's obvious to most that our country is as great as it is because of those guidelines.

The “Ten Commandments” quote is a different matter entirely. When Barton started spreading it, Madison scholars found it to contradict much of his verified works. They searched for it, couldn’t find it, and asked Barton for his source. When it couldn’t be traced earlier than the 1950s, he admitted that it could not be verified and, to his credit, asked that it not be used in debate. To his discredit, he originally accepted it because he wanted it to be real. It’s questionable at best, most likely false, and taints not only his entire body of work but any argument that uses it. Unfortunately, it’s spread all over the place. History is a factual study, and I’ve made a point of challenging it whenever I see it.

David Barton's work stands on it's own, you have your work cut out for if you intend to discredit him. Why don't you debate the quote instead, does it not ring true to you?

[Aquamarine]

Good Morning Mayor. Excellent post today!

[Aquamarine]

Your words of praise are very welcomed Dolly.

So that's Wheelbarrow!

Happy Birthday to one of America's great Patriots and thanks for all you do. Hope you two have a memorable day.

[The Mayor]

Morning Aqua..
From my profile page..

It cannot be emphasized to strongly or too often
that this great nation was founded, not by religionists
but by Christians, not on religions,
but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ
For this very reason people of other faiths
have been afforded asylum, prosperity,
and freedom of worship here.
Patrick Henry

The Bible
The more profoundly we study this wonderful book,
and the more closely we observe it's divine precepts,
the higher will be our destiny as a nation
President William McKinley, Inaugural address
March 4, 1897

[Aquamarine]

Thanks for bring those quotes forward.

In case anyone was wondering who David Barton is, he is the the author of 'Original Intent'.
Taken from David Barton's bio..."David’s exhaustive research (from original writings) on the Founding Era has rendered him an expert in this field, and consequently he serves as consultant to state and federal legislators; has participated in several cases at the Supreme Court; was involved in the development of the History/Social Studies standards for both Texas and California students; and has contributed to projects and legislation set forth by countless other groups, individuals, and legislators across the country."

Go here for more...WallBuilders

[E Rocc]

Whether James Madison said those words or not the above was our Founders intent. Those words describe the true basis of a civilized society and without those guidelines chaos would reign. It's obvious to most that our country is as great as it is because of those guidelines.

Because we do not allow the worshipping of other Gods? Because we ban the making of graven images or working on the Sabbath? Clearly these would be the case in a nation with laws based on the Commandments. But they are very much not the case here, and indeed that is the basis of much of our Nation’s greatness. The Framers were precise men who wrote a precise document meant to be the supreme law of the land. If they meant it to be based on any religious principle, it is clear they would have said so

David Barton's work stands on it's own, you have your work cut out for if you intend to discredit him. Why don't you debate the quote instead, does it not ring true to you?

My earlier link shows Barton’s admission that several of the quotes he based his work on are in all likelihood not accurate. His work was propaganda, not serious history. He’s admitted he was inspired by an idea and set out to prove it. That’s not how good history works…the process is more like science than politics. Contrast this to Ronald Radosh, who set out to write a book that would prove the Rosenbergs innocent, found that the facts showed Julius to be clearly guilty, and wrote exactly that.

As for debating the quote itself, I had a liberal ask me the same question about the Rather memos. The analogy is actually close to exact: its dubious history makes it irrelevant.

-Eric

[E Rocc]

It cannot be emphasized to strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ

While Henry was indeed a devout Christian, the link in post 4 shows that this quote is unconfirmed as well.

-Eric

[The Mayor]

Excellent link. Thanks.!

[Aquamarine]

Because we do not allow the worshipping of other Gods? Because we ban the making of graven images or working on the Sabbath? Clearly these would be the case in a nation with laws based on the Commandments. But they are very much not the case here, and indeed that is the basis of much of our Nation’s greatness. The Framers were precise men who wrote a precise document meant to be the supreme law of the land. If they meant it to be based on any religious principle, it is clear they would have said so

Where do you think our Judicial system came up with the laws that we live by today? The Ten Commandments are the foundation of our legal history, our laws are based on God's Word.

[E Rocc]

Where do you think our Judicial system came up with the laws that we live by today? The Ten Commandments are the foundation of our legal history, our laws are based on God's Word.

The Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and that's how the judicial system interprets all lesser laws. As for the Commandments, they are only seen as "God's Word" by specific faiths, so cannot be endorsed as such as per the Establishment clause. English common law carries more weight in a court of law.

-Eric