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Murtha's War Hero Status Called Into Question
cnsnews.com ^ | 1/13/05 | By Marc Morano and Randy Hall

Posted on 01/13/2006 11:53:53 AM PST by paltz

(CNSNews.com) - Having ascended to the national stage as one of the most vocal critics of President Bush's handling of the war in Iraq, Pennsylvania Democratic Congressman John Murtha has long downplayed the controversy and the bitterness surrounding the two Purple Hearts he was awarded for military service in Vietnam.

Murtha is a retired marine and was the first Vietnam combat veteran elected to Congress. Since 1967, there have been at least three different accounts of the injuries that purportedly earned Murtha his Purple Hearts. Those accounts also appear to conflict with the limited military records that are available, and Murtha has thus far refused to release his own military records.

A Cybercast News Service investigation also reveals that one of Murtha's former Democratic congressional colleagues and a fellow decorated Vietnam veteran, Don Bailey of Pennsylvania, alleges that Murtha admitted during an emotional conversation on the floor of the U.S. House in the early 1980s that he did not deserve his Purple Hearts.

"[Murtha] is putting himself forward as some combat veteran with serious wounds and he's using that and it's dishonest and it's wrong," Bailey told Cybercast News Service on Jan. 9. Murtha served in the Marines on active duty and in the reserves from 1952 until his retirement as a colonel in 1990. He volunteered for service in Vietnam and was a First Marine Regiment intelligence officer in 1966 and 1967.

Murtha and Bailey, once allies, were forced to run against each other in a Democratic congressional primary in 1982 following redistricting. Murtha won the election.

Murtha has, in the past, publicly dismissed any questions about whether he deserved his two Purple Hearts, noting during his 1994 congressional campaign that "I am proud of my service in Vietnam."

In his Friday, Jan. 13, response to the Cybercast News Service investigation, Murtha again defended his military record.

"Questions about my record are clearly an attempt to distract attention from the real issue, which is that our brave men and women in uniform are dying and being injured every day in the middle of a civil war that can be resolved only by the Iraqis themselves," Murtha wrote in an email response.

"I volunteered for a year's duty in Vietnam. I was out in the field almost every single day. We took heavy casualties in my regiment the year that I was there. In my fitness reports, I was rated No. 1. My record is clear," Murtha added.

However, another source, World War II Navy veteran Harry M. Fox, previously indicated that Murtha in 1968 personally asked Fox's boss, then-U.S. Rep. John Saylor (R-Pa.), for assistance in obtaining the Purple Hearts, but was turned down because Saylor's office determined that Murtha lacked sufficient evidence of wounds. Murtha later challenged Saylor for his House seat in 1968 and lost. Fox said he personally viewed Murtha's military records in 1968 as Saylor's aide.

When Saylor died in 1973, Fox attempted to succeed his boss in Congress, but was narrowly defeated by Murtha in a 1974 special election.

"Pretending to be a big war hero and boasting about having medals is a slap in the face to our veterans who were seriously wounded or killed in action," Fox was quoted as telling the Uniontown Herald-Standard in the newspaper's Nov. 1, 1996 edition. "He campaigned as a war hero and I've never seen any documentation that he earned any of these honors," Fox reportedly stated.

On Friday, Jan. 13, Murtha's congressional communications director provided Cybercast News Service with a copy of a letter from the commandant of the U.S. Marine Corps, citing Murtha's request of Sept. 26, 1967, seeking Purple Hearts. Cybercast News Service did not authenticate the letter.

"The records of this Headquarters show that you are entitled to the Purple Heart and a Gold Star in lieu of a second Purple Heart for wounds received in action against insurgent Communist Guerrilla forces on 22 March and 7 May 1967 in the Republic of Vietnam," according to the letter signed by an individual identified only as A. Gardoni. Gardoni's title is not listed on the letter.

Cybercast News Service attempted to contact Fox for this article, but learned that the health of the 81-year-old was too poor to allow him to communicate. But in a 1996 newspaper article, Fox questioned whether Murtha deserved his Purple Hearts, alleging that there was insufficient evidence of injuries and that Murtha was never confined to a hospital.

"Of course Congressman Saylor wanted to help if he could, but there was nothing in the service record to indicate the wounds were of any severity and the documents specifically indicated that next of kin was not notified in either instance," Fox told the Herald-Standard in 1996. "We were amazed that Mr. Murtha was asking for Purple Hearts for superficial lacerations," he added.

Murtha's accounts of his Vietnam War wounds may also conflict with the available U.S. Marine medical records obtained by the media.

The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette on May 12, 2002, reported that "Marine Corps casualty records show that Murtha was injured in 'hostile' actions near Danang, Vietnam, on March 22, 1967, and May 7, 1967.

"In the first incident, his right cheek was lacerated, and in the second, he was lacerated above his left eye. Neither injury required evacuation," the Post-Gazette reported.

But an Oct. 26, 1994, article in the Herald-Standard quoted Murtha as describing two different injuries.

"I was wounded in the arm with shrapnel from a bullet that hit the motor mount of a helicopter. In the other, my knee was banged up and my arm was banged up when a helicopter was shot down from a very few feet," Murtha told the Herald-Standard.

A June 1, 1967 report in the Johnstown Tribune-Democrat quoted a letter that the newspaper indicated was sent by Murtha to his wife that same year. The letter apparently detailed yet another version of how Murtha qualified for one of his Purple Hearts. According to the Johnstown Tribune-Democrat, Murtha's injuries involved his being "struck in the ankle" by a "shot that ricocheted off the helicopter."

Murtha, a 16-term congressman from southwestern Pennsylvania and the senior Democrat on the House Appropriations Committee, drew national attention on Nov. 17, 2005, when he called for an immediate withdrawal of American forces from Iraq.

The Vietnam veteran even took a swipe at President Bush and Vice President Cheney, neither of whom have actual combat experience.

"I like guys who've never been there, who criticize us who've been there," Murtha said. "I like that. I like guys who got five deferments and never been there and sent people to war and then don't like to hear suggestions that what may need to be done."

Murtha discussed his own combat experience as a marine intelligence officer in his 2004 autobiography, "From Vietnam to 9/11: On the Front Lines of National Security."

"I had been awake more than twenty-four hours by the time we landed. A few hours into the battle, an on-again-off-again event, I could no longer keep my eyes open. I curled up next to a bunker and fell into a deep sleep for about an hour. Even the noise of frequent gunfire didn't wake me up. (One of my fellow officers told me the next morning that when he hadn't seen me for an hour or so, he assumed I was dead,)" Murtha wrote of one of his Vietnam combat experiences on page 14 of the 2004 paperback edition of his book. Murtha's two Purple Hearts are referenced on the back of the book.

In addition to his Purple Hearts, Murtha received the Vietnamese Cross for Gallantry and the Bronze Star with combat "V" for service in the 1st Marine Division in Vietnam. Murtha also served in the Marines during the Korean War but did not serve in Korea, according to his book.

'He's a phony and a liar'

Bailey said during the time Murtha was being investigated for his role in the Abscam FBI sting in 1980, Murtha made a confession on the House floor.

... you admitted, back in our corner, that you didn't earn your purple hearts (sic) (you indicated you had small scratch on your cheek that wasn't even directly related to an APC [Armored Personnel Carrier] that ran over a small antipersonnel mine that was behind you). The other purple heart [sic] you even declined to explain," wrote Bailey in an open letter dated May 5, 2002.

Bailey is also a decorated Vietnam combat veteran. He served in the U.S. Army's 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions and was awarded a Silver Star and three Bronze Stars.

"At the time (of Murtha's alleged admission), you were feeling particularly vulnerable because it wasn't too long after you had called me crying and sobbing, thanking me for 'saving your life' before the ethics committee (on Abscam-related charges). There was no doubt in my mind that you were expressing to me that you did not believe you did anything sufficient to earn the purple heart [sic] and that you didn't want to be active in my efforts to laud Vietnam veterans that served with us," Bailey wrote in his May 2002 letter.

"You may deny that all you wish -- but you and I know that that conversation took place," he added.

In the Jan. 9 interview with Cybercast News Service Bailey affirmed the contents of his 2002 letter.

"The issue here is this idea or pretense that [Murtha] knows combat and he's got two Purple Hearts. He's a phony and a liar," Bailey said.

Bailey also questioned why Murtha has thus far declined to release his full military records in order to clear up the controversy.

"The Marine Corps ought to be able to produce all the orders, the medical stuff, the citations and the orders granting [the Purple Hearts] and everything else. Where is that stuff?" he asked.

According to a May 16, 2002, edition of the Washington, Pa., Observer-Reporter, Murtha "produced military paperwork indicating he was entitled to the awards," and a Murtha spokesperson was quoted as saying that "the media for years has investigated 'and found nothing.'"

But Murtha's paperwork did nothing to sway Bailey's opinion.

"You may fool a few reporters into believing that merely because you got some perfunctory paperwork made out by a friend, that that means you earned the purple hearts [sic]. But even if you were awarded the medals later, there should be affidavits from witnesses. These things should be easy to get," Bailey wrote in his letter while demanding an apology from Murtha for questioning his credibility.

Murtha could end the controversy at any time, Bailey added, simply by calling a press conference and producing the evidence of his wounds.

"Explain where you were and what you were doing when you got the purple hearts.[sic] Explain who was with you and treated your wounds, but most important, Jack, describe your wounds or the lack thereof, as you did for me, years ago," Bailey wrote.

"Unless the Marine Corps gives out medals for unsubstantiated noncombat-related telltale scratches, procured for use in political campaign -- then show me the money, Jack," Bailey added.

Murtha: 'I'm proud of my service in Vietnam'

During the 1994 congressional campaign against GOP opponent Dr. William Choby, Murtha's two Purple Hearts became a political issue.

"Explain your Purple Hearts. He (Murtha) used them to get elected," Choby charged in 1994.

In responding to the charges, Murtha claimed that he "didn't ask for the Purple Hearts.

"I'm proud of my service in Vietnam. I don't know if he (Choby) served in the service at all. I left my family and my business to serve in Vietnam. My family made great sacrifice for me to make that service in Vietnam, so I'm very proud of that," he told the Uniontown Herald-Standard in the newspaper's Oct. 26, 1994 edition.

"I am disappointed that a guy (Choby) would say something like that when I volunteered in the reserves and I felt it was important that I go. What's the point in all this? It's irritating," Murtha added.

Choby also challenged the validity of Murtha's Bronze Star with Combat 'V' during the 1996 congressional campaign.

"I find it very curious that Combat 'V' doesn't even exist in any of the materials he had distributed," Choby was quoted as saying in the Herald-Standard of Oct. 13, 1996. "His military record improves over the years," he added.

The Murtha controversy is reminiscent of the flap surrounding the war record of 2004 Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry. But while critics like the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth attacked Kerry in 2004 because of his anti-war activism of the 1970s, Murtha's three chief accusers all made their allegations years and in some cases decades before Murtha emerged last November as a prominent anti-war activist.

Choby told Cybercast News Service on Jan. 5 that Murtha's entire political career is based on his war record. "Without that credibility of those combat medals, he would have never been elected to office," Choby said.

(Monisha Bansal also contributed to this article.)

Read Article About Murtha's Links to Abscam


TOPICS: Breaking News; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: 109th; abscam; anotherpurpleowie; cnsnews; exmarine; foundkerrysmedals; liar; murtha; murthamedals; phony; phonyandaliar; purpleheart; purplehearts
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To: Mr. Silverback
Good afternoon.
"He was put in for it by his CO,..."

Unless things have changed, or I'm losing my memory, you aren't "put in" for a purple heart. When you are treated for a wound by medical personnel they fill out a tag on the injury and that report makes it's way up the chain and the medal is awarded.

Cleland isn't a good example of a phony PH because he was wounded during combat operations. It doesn't matter who blew him up.

Michael Frazier
501 posted on 01/15/2006 12:44:44 PM PST by brazzaville (no surrender no retreat, well, maybe retreat's ok)
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To: cmppc

He is a traitor to the brave men and women who are serving over there. A real hero does not brag about medals. I know my brother has many but I do not have a clue as to what they are. I hope my niece does.


502 posted on 01/15/2006 12:48:40 PM PST by MamaB (mom to an Angel)
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To: ARealMothersSonForever

I hope so.


503 posted on 01/15/2006 12:50:20 PM PST by MamaB (mom to an Angel)
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To: MamaB

cmppc left our midst well over an hour ago.
It will not be missed ;)


504 posted on 01/15/2006 12:55:13 PM PST by ARealMothersSonForever
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To: Donald Rumsfeld Fan
Your Post has Inspired me, Donald Rumsfeld Fan, and Made me So Thankful for the Good men who Lead our Nation. Bush Sr. and Bob Dole are two men I Esteem Very Highly, along with Ronald Reagan; they are Real Men, Unlike Some who have Occupied the White House. I didn't Always Agree with their Politics, but they are Courageous, Patriotic Men who are Deserving of our Highest Respect and Honor.

I So Wanted Bob Dole to Win the White House that I Refered to him as "President Dole" whenever I would Mention his Name to Anyone in my Family! I was Devastated when he didn't Win.

My Computer Refuses to Let me See the Third Picture you Posted, Even when I Hit "Show Picture," so I will Look at it Tonight on my Other Computer. (Thank you for that 2nd Picture!)


505 posted on 01/15/2006 1:15:51 PM PST by Kitty Mittens
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To: GSWarrior

Yes.

It's john kerry redux and the public has a right to know, especially since Murtha has become the dem attack dog against the administration's conduct of the war, and policy, regarding Iraq.


506 posted on 01/15/2006 1:30:47 PM PST by GretchenM (God made you. He will also take you out. Better to go on His terms -- through Jesus.)
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To: sakic
People who didn't serve who criticize war records of people who put their life on line while the criticizers kept their fat asses pinned to couches are vermin in my opinion.

I served. I say if Murtha's war record is a fraud, expose him.

Murtha should not be allowed to climb atop a box of lies to claim the moral high ground to criticize what our troops are doing in Iraq. He himself has opened his war record to scrutiny. He has no cause to complain if we accept the invitation and take a hard look.

507 posted on 01/15/2006 1:31:35 PM PST by JCEccles
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To: windcliff
"Get it?"

"Got it."

"Good."

508 posted on 01/15/2006 1:32:28 PM PST by onedoug
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To: brazzaville
"Cleland isn't a good example of a phony PH because he was wounded during combat operations. It doesn't matter who blew him up."

Being wounded during an operation in Vietnam did not necessarily authorize the award of a Purple Heart. The wound had to be the result of enemy fire. The way I read the Max Cleland wounding was that it occurred during an administrative landing of a helicopter on a secured LZ on a U.S. firebase. The helicopter had landed, some passengers had exited the helicopter, and Cleland decided at the last minute to stay at the firebase and meet with friends who were assigned there. Cleland threw his gear off the helicopter, jumped off, picked up his gear and started to walk away when he looked back and saw a U.S. hand grenade laying on the ground where his gear had been. Thinking he had accidentally dropped the grenade, he turned around to pick it up, and as he reached for it, the grenade exploded. This was undoubtedly a tragic accident but was not the result of enemy fire and would not normally have resulted in the award of a Purple Heart.

I don't know if anyone ever did a statistical study on the subject, but from personal experience, I witnessed almost as many U.S. troops wounded or killed by either accident or by friendly fire in Vietnam as I did by enemy fire. But then, no unit I served with ever took a good ass kicking.

509 posted on 01/15/2006 1:39:00 PM PST by DJ Taylor (Once again our country is at war, and once again the Democrats have sided with our enemy.)
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To: Mr. Silverback
My daddy will tell you he wasn't a hero, he just did his duty. Lots of other folks did far more braver deeds than he did, he will say.

But I don't care what he says, he's MY hero!

510 posted on 01/15/2006 1:57:32 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: Lunatic Fringe

If any pubbies get caught lying, hang 'em high.


511 posted on 01/15/2006 2:54:03 PM PST by razorback-bert
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub; All

512 posted on 01/15/2006 3:23:21 PM PST by Gucho
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To: DJ Taylor
Accidents don't count. During a rocket attack, a friend of mine busted a wing diving for cover. Ruled an accident. during another rocket attack several of us were rained on by shrapnel. Also accidental.
While in Danang, we got an occasional afternoon at China Beach in country R&R and recuperation area for those dinged up in action. Some got PHs, some didn't.
513 posted on 01/15/2006 3:38:05 PM PST by BIGLOOK (I once opposed keelhauling but recently have come to my senses.)
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Hey "Move On FReeper" who had my FR account suspended on 1/14/06 Listen Up

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1557630/posts?page=379#379

I KNOW you are here lurking.

Your FR profile has no info about you or
an e-mail address to write to you?

You've been afraid to even be on this thread
and orchestrated my account being suspended
(the 1st and only time on FR)
by FReep Mail only.

So if I FReep mail you I'll probably be suspended a 2nd time
since you have at least one Mod from the "Move On FReepers"
on your side.

So go to my profile page and send me your real e-mail address.
http://www.freerepublic.com/~6869tonkingulfyachtc/

I'll be waiting for your e-mail!


514 posted on 01/15/2006 4:02:59 PM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Be wary of the "Move On FReepers" who scream and howl "Move On Tonk, Get Over It")
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To: RVN Airplane Driver
"...strongly suggest reinstatement of the draft."

I have mixed feelings on that....
I'd hate to introduce unwilling, unsuited amateurs into a fine running professional volunteer warrior corps, but on the other hand -- every male would benefit from the experience and perhaps gain some sense of loyalty to country...

Semper Fi

515 posted on 01/15/2006 4:12:01 PM PST by river rat (You may turn the other cheek, but I prefer to look into my enemy's vacant dead eyes.)
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Hey "Move on FReeper", pay attention and learn

Jack Murtha's "Fake" Purple Hearts, An Open Letter
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1558666/posts


516 posted on 01/15/2006 4:12:45 PM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Be wary of the "Move On FReepers" who scream and howl "Move On Tonk, Get Over It")
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To: Little Bill
In I Corps - most Intel Officers were NOT REMF...they were often "near in fear" when the SHTF!
It was not uncommon to have them exposed and in harm's way... Hell, you could even get yourself killed mainside DaNang!
I have no difficulty accepting the story that Murtha may have been of this type and in harm's way ---- I simply doubt the truth of his "heroics" and his DESERVING two "Purple Hearts"..

Semper Fi
517 posted on 01/15/2006 4:38:08 PM PST by river rat (You may turn the other cheek, but I prefer to look into my enemy's vacant dead eyes.)
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To: Kitty Mittens
Sometimes these links I get from Google Images are prone to break. I hit the preview button and they're OK. But when I post they're broken. I have no idea why.

Let's try one more time Kitty and if it breaks so be it. It's a photo of Bush Sr. being fished out of the sea and onto what appears to be the deck of a submarine.


518 posted on 01/15/2006 5:34:33 PM PST by Donald Rumsfeld Fan ("fake but accurate": NY Times)
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To: DJ Taylor
Good evening.
"I witnessed almost as many U.S. troops wounded or killed by either accident or by friendly fire in Vietnam as I did by enemy fire."

Not just in Vietnam. Since man started using projectile weapons he has been accidentally killing or wounding his buddies and himself. Explosives just added to the problem and "smart" weapons will probably make it worse for a while.

I believe you are right about the rules but it would be a rare doc who didn't sign off on a PH for wounds as serious as Cleland's

Michael Frazier
519 posted on 01/15/2006 5:36:48 PM PST by brazzaville (no surrender no retreat, well, maybe retreat's ok)
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To: JLO
Here's a pic of Murtha (I'm 99.99% sure it's him) sitting in the VFW audience while President Bush spoke awhile back. It was a headline story over at DU.

I don't think it's him- look at the rank on the hat. Murtha was a Colonel, supposedly, when he retired and I'm sure that he was an officer who looked down on NCOs.

520 posted on 01/15/2006 5:44:49 PM PST by DilJective (Proudly serving in the US Army)
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To: jwalsh07

"Murtha has stuck his ample foot in his ample mouth more times than is necessary to cast doubt on his opinion."

Why haven't the MP's called this idiot into their office, and perhaps take away that, "Hero" status/purple hearts if he doesn't button his lip?


521 posted on 01/15/2006 6:32:06 PM PST by Mrs. Darla Ruth Schwerin
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
Image hosted by Photobucket.com
522 posted on 01/15/2006 6:33:38 PM PST by JLO (www.operationminnesotanice.com)
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To: Donald Rumsfeld Fan
Thank you for Trying to Repost the Picture of Bush Sr. being Pulled Out of the Water! I'm on my Other Computer, but I still can't See it. (But Thank you for your Thoughtfulness in Trying to Post it!)

I have Seen a Video Clip of him being Pulled to Safety on the News a Couple of Years Ago; I was Amazed that the Clip Even Existed! God Bless this Dear and Courageous man!


523 posted on 01/15/2006 9:05:04 PM PST by Kitty Mittens
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub

Thanks for the ping Tonkin. Good graphic!!


524 posted on 01/15/2006 9:16:57 PM PST by potlatch (Does a clean house indicate that there is a broken computer in it?)
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To: brazzaville
Unless things have changed, or I'm losing my memory, you aren't "put in" for a purple heart. When you are treated for a wound by medical personnel they fill out a tag on the injury and that report makes it's way up the chain and the medal is awarded.

If that detail is wrong, it must be a mistake on my part. This guy is the real deal. I've not only seen the shrapnel, I've seen footage of him in Vietnam.

525 posted on 01/15/2006 10:59:20 PM PST by Mr. Silverback ("Do they sell walls there?"--Paris Hilton asks about Wal-Mart.)
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
Politics is war by other means, and just as in war we need to hit the enemy at their centers of gravity. For example, you don't go after every soldier in the enemy army just because they exist and could hurt you, you hit where it will gain you the most.

When some Freeper disagrees with you about what is and isn't an important center of gravity to hit at this moment, that doesn't make them a traitor.

526 posted on 01/15/2006 11:25:28 PM PST by Mr. Silverback ("Do they sell walls there?"--Paris Hilton asks about Wal-Mart.)
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To: river rat; RVN Airplane Driver

The draft is the last thing the Army wants, and Air Force guys I served with had nothing good to say about it. It is counterproductive at this point.


527 posted on 01/15/2006 11:29:05 PM PST by Mr. Silverback ("Do they sell walls there?"--Paris Hilton asks about Wal-Mart.)
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To: paltz

While I whole heartedly disagree with Murtha's stance, as a veteran of long term service, I am sick and tired of these attacks on the service of various veterans.


528 posted on 01/16/2006 7:59:37 AM PST by jb6 (The Atheist/Pagan mind, a quandary wrapped in egoism and served with a side order of self importance)
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To: Mr. Silverback

I agree that is exactly my point.


529 posted on 01/16/2006 7:59:55 AM PST by JIM O
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To: Bob
Last Name, First Name
Rank
Title/Position
530 posted on 01/16/2006 8:07:16 AM PST by jb6 (The Atheist/Pagan mind, a quandary wrapped in egoism and served with a side order of self importance)
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To: paltz

Most likely true but the wrong approach.


531 posted on 01/16/2006 8:10:47 AM PST by grace522 (Let's not slander our intelligence to that degree)
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To: Mr. Silverback

"When some Freeper disagrees with you about what is and isn't an important center of gravity to hit at this moment, that doesn't make them a traitor."

Just when did I say that made them a traitor?




532 posted on 01/16/2006 8:37:08 AM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Be wary of the "Move On FReepers" who scream and howl "Move On Tonk, Get Over It")
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To: BIGLOOK

After 37 years, what rank did he retire...Lt Colonel?


533 posted on 01/16/2006 8:52:31 AM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: jb6
Last Name, First Name
Rank
Title/Position

Or something very similar. I just received a replacement DD-214.

On the cover letter:

First Name Last Name (signed)

First Name Last Name (printed)

Archives Technician (printed)

Core 3, Team A (printed)

On the DD-214 (from 1975):

J. M. REYES, PNC, USN, ASS'T PERS.OFF.(typed)

BY DIRECTION OF THE C. O. (typed)

Separate block: written signature

534 posted on 01/16/2006 9:47:53 AM PST by Bob
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To: MadeInAmerica

It would only take five minutes for the two of them to discuss their war stories. Neither had anything true to talk about. Cheez.


535 posted on 01/16/2006 9:49:20 AM PST by Marysecretary (Thank you, Lord, for FOUR MORE YEARS!!!)
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To: MadeInAmerica

ROFLMAO...him and Kerry should get together and swap war stories. By the time they are done...they would have been both killed and raised from the dead.


--

And then GW Bush could come along and tell his war stories?
Seriously, this is a stupid route to go down. If you think someone's policies, then say so. If you think their policies will be bad for the country, then say so and say why.
This whole thing of discussing what people did decades ago is rather depressing. Politics should be about the future, not the past.


536 posted on 01/16/2006 10:19:34 AM PST by TheWormster
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
Perhaps you have never explicitly used the term "traitor" to describe the "Move On Freepers," but your statements about them clearly are meant to leave the impression that they are enemies of the troops, or at least that they "put politics 1st, then money, then the troops." In post 461 of this thread you said that they "are out to sabotage the 2006 and 2008 elections" and posted that over a photo of John Kerry stabbing a soldier in the back. Is that supposed to mean something other than treason? The only way you could imply it more strongly is to post a photo of Benedict Arnold and label it "18th Century Move On Freeper." If you're surprised I'm getting the "They're traitors" vibe from your posts, maybe you should read back through some of them and think about it a bit.

Yes, some of the people who disagree with you on Murtha and Kerry are hostile about it. That doesn't make them Kerry and Murtha's allies. If a prosecutor doesn't want to take a case to court because they won't get a conviction, that doesn't make them a criminal, or a lover of crime. Yet when someone believes that your tactics will not gain anything for the troops or the conservative cause, you publicly associate them with people who are guilty of treason, and often do so with illustrations that show someone committing treasonous acts. As I said, it would be difficult for you to imply it more strongly.

If you think these people really are DUers, then get some Freeper researchers together and see if you can bust them. My problem is I'd bet you'd lump me in with the "Move On Freepers" because I think there's no chance in the world we'd ever get Kerry removed from the Senate and shouldn't waste our time. Let me tell you, I sure as heck haven't spent the last four years doing troop support work so somebody can lump me in with John Kerry and Jack Murtha.

537 posted on 01/16/2006 10:35:30 AM PST by Mr. Silverback ("Do they sell walls there?"--Paris Hilton asks about Wal-Mart.)
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To: TheWormster
And then GW Bush could come along and tell his war stories?

I am not in favor of giving much attention to Murtha's medals, but this is beyond silly. First, let's note that the President has not ever used his service as a qualification for his elected jobs, and Murtha and Kerry have used it as their foremost qualification. Second, let's review the record:

Kerry gamed the system for medals and committed treason.

Murtha may have gamed the system for medals, and is certainly giving aid and comfort to our enemies now.

GWB volunteered for Vietnam twice according to witnesses, volunteered to fly a plane known for killing pilots, and served his time honorably.

You don't have to think G.W. is a hero to see that there is no comparison between him and these scumbags. And as a veteran, I have no problem with a medlahound being exposed. I don't think we should make it a line of attack with Murtha, but I see no problem with it in general. Those who game the system deserve to be exposed, no matter how much later it occurs.

538 posted on 01/16/2006 10:43:14 AM PST by Mr. Silverback ("Do they sell walls there?"--Paris Hilton asks about Wal-Mart.)
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To: Mr. Silverback

"Yes, some of the people who disagree with you on Murtha and Kerry are hostile about it."

And now they resort to getting my FR account suspended,
for what was a private discussion in FReep mail.

It was the 1st time ever that they resorted to this tactic.

Notice how they never say anything against hanoi kerry or cut and run murtha, BUT attack me.

Just keep in mind that
"Move On FReepers" "swore" klintoon, hitlery, hanoi kerry, sanbdi ber(bur)glar, al bore, jane beno,
would be prosecuted for
pardongate, chinagate, the bribes in upstate NY in the 2000 NY Senate race, waco, etc, etc,
"when" the "time was right".

Now we have to deal with hitlery because the
"Move On FReepers" told everyone to "wait"

I'm far from the only person on this thread, or in the forum, that has enough of the "PC" crowd.

The "PC" crowd is in fact the minority on FR.

Time to get to the basics.

Just ask Karl Rove who really won the Nov 2 2004 election


Rove Credits Swiftvets With 'Energizing' Bush Vote (Thank You Karl Rove!)

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1345603/posts









539 posted on 01/16/2006 11:05:45 AM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Plank Owner : Department of Homeland Security)
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To: Mr. Silverback

"I think there's no chance in the world we'd ever get Kerry removed from the Senate and shouldn't waste our time."

With a soon 6-3 US Supreme Court it's a no brainer!

It's not "my bright idea", it's what the law of the land says.

There is no need to impeach Hanoi Kerry from the US Senate

He is there illegally!

WAKEUP AMERICA!

For those who "forgot" what Hanoi Kerry
did in the past read on and learn the truth.

Hanoi Kerry was still a USNR officer while he:
gave false hearsay testimony to Congress
negotiated with the enemy
helped the US lose a war
abetted in the deaths of millions
created a hostile environment for all servicemen

Why is Kerry still in the US Senate?
This is in violation of
U.S. Constitution Amendment 14 Sec 3
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.amendmentxiv.html

And the FBI has proof of his treason.

Hanoi Kerry Timeline of a traitor
includes FBI files

May 1970
Kerry and Julia traveled to Paris, France and met with Madame Nguyen Thi Binh, the Foreign Minister of the Provisional Revolutionary Government of Vietnam (PRG), the political wing of the Vietcong, and other Viet Cong and Communist Vietnamese representatives to the Paris peace talks, a trip he now calls a "fact-finding" mission.

(U.S. code 18 U.S.C. 953, declares it illegal for a U.S. citizen to go abroad and negotiate with a foreign power.)

http://www.archive-news.net/Kerry/JK_timeline.html

a) A person charged with absence without leave or missing movement in time of war,
or with any offense punishable by death,
may be tried at any time without limitation.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/ucmj.htm#*%20843.%20ART.%2043.%20STATUTE%20OF%20LIMITATIONS


540 posted on 01/16/2006 11:13:09 AM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Plank Owner : Department of Homeland Security)
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
Whether it's the law and whether we can get it done at this time are two different things.

1. If the American people were really ready to believe that Kerry is an undisputed Benedict Arnold, he would not have gotten 48% of the vote.

2. If Kerry goes out now, he will be replaced by another traitor from Mass., only without any of the inconvenient baggage.

The center of gravity is the hearts and minds of non-conservatives. Millions have to be won before your plan has any gain in it for the troops, the nation, or conservatism.

541 posted on 01/16/2006 11:28:11 AM PST by Mr. Silverback ("Do they sell walls there?"--Paris Hilton asks about Wal-Mart.)
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To: Mr. Silverback

"Millions have to be won before your plan has any gain in it for the troops, the nation, or conservatism."

It's the law of the land, plain and simple.

A soon to be 6-3 US Supreme Court is all that is needed.

"If the Constitution says that the little guy should win,
the little guy's going to win in court before me.
But if the Constitution says that the big guy should win, well,
then the big guy's going to win,
because my obligation is to the Constitution. That's the oath," he said.

Judge John Roberts 09/15/05

U.S. Constitution Amendment 14 Sec 3
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.amendmentxiv.html


542 posted on 01/16/2006 11:32:32 AM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Plank Owner : Department of Homeland Security)
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
I didn't say it wasn't the law. I said that it wouldn't help anything. Kerry goes out, another troop-hating Mass Dem goes in. The public, 48% of which voted for Kerry to be C-in-C, starts wondering what the heck we're doing. We pay at the ballot box. No help for the troops, the nation or consevatism. And that's assuming your plan works. If it doesn't work, we get all the downside and Kerry gets to play the poor martyr stoically putting up wiith our persecution. Screw that!

Please, go ahead. Tell me how you will get the Congress (notice section 5) to do this. Tell me how all the folks who voted for Kerry (and all those who voted for Bush and didn't believe the Swiftees, like about 10% of the electorate) will suddenly decide that he's Benedict Arnold. Tell me how it will help any soldier anywhere to replace Kerry with another brain dead Massachusetss pol.

But most of all, tell me why people who want to hit just as hard on a different center of gravity are not merely wrong, but traitors. I'm still waiting for a proper explanation of that.

543 posted on 01/16/2006 11:53:28 AM PST by Mr. Silverback ("Do they sell walls there?"--Paris Hilton asks about Wal-Mart.)
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To: river rat
I was in the Army in II and III Corps and can only go by my own experiences. Most of the time when they showed up it was to direct the collection of papers and stuff, do some Order of Battle ID's and make sure we missed nothing.

Generally after the fact.

544 posted on 01/16/2006 11:59:31 AM PST by Little Bill (A 37%'r, a Red Spot on a Blue State, rats are evil.)
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To: Mr. Silverback

Why do you assume the US Supreme Court won't do the right thing.

Have you lost faith in the U.S. Constitution

It needs no action by the US Senate at all.

U.S. Constitution Amendment 14 Sec 3 (1868)

Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress,
or elector of President and Vice President,
or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States,
or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath,
as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States,
or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer
of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States,
shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same,

or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.

But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.amendmentxiv.html


545 posted on 01/16/2006 12:02:00 PM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Plank Owner : Department of Homeland Security)
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To: Mr. Silverback

"But most of all, tell me why people who want to hit just as hard on a different center of gravity are not merely wrong, but traitors. I'm still waiting for a proper explanation of that."

Again, show me proof where I said they were traitors?


546 posted on 01/16/2006 12:04:26 PM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Plank Owner : Department of Homeland Security)
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To: Mr. Silverback

"and all those who voted for Bush and didn't believe the Swiftees,

like about 10% of the electorate"

Source please


547 posted on 01/16/2006 12:06:37 PM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Plank Owner : Department of Homeland Security)
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To: Mr. Silverback

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1558539/posts?page=24#24


548 posted on 01/16/2006 12:12:43 PM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Plank Owner : Department of Homeland Security)
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To: Mr. Silverback

"and all those who voted for Bush and didn't believe the Swiftees, like about 10% of the electorate"

Rove Credits Swiftvets With 'Energizing' Bush Vote (Thank You Karl Rove!)

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1345603/posts


549 posted on 01/16/2006 12:40:07 PM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Plank Owner : Department of Homeland Security)
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To: Little Bill
I hope you didn't misunderstand my post..
It was NOT intended to dispute your observations in your experience..
I was only attempting to give a different experience, in a different area in a different branch of the service -- involving only those persons personally observed...

There is no doubt that others had experiences different from mine and yours.....
My post was an attempt to state that Murtha - in Intelligence -- could in fact have been exposed to enemy action ANYWHERE in I Corps ---- even if he spent most of his time in DaNang...

There is no doubt every branch had plenty of worthless POS that had been elevated to Officer status --- I consider it my good fortune to have never served under one...

Welcome home
Semper Fi

550 posted on 01/16/2006 1:37:31 PM PST by river rat (You may turn the other cheek, but I prefer to look into my enemy's vacant dead eyes.)
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