Posted on 06/23/2007 12:21:46 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
WELL then CALM DOWN.. I'm not upset at all.. They are just "QUESTIONS"...
Dawkins stands as posterboy for some science masters.. not all..
Dawkins book is agressive and honest about his "Observations"..
How can "WE" determine each others stance on things without engagement with each other..
This(FR) is not a scientific journal but a mostly political website..
Logic must be persued to observe the tactics involved.. like that..
IOW, "the observer problem" is not a stick with which to beat one's opponent; it is a universal human condition. I have it; you have it; we all have it.
I understand. What I don't understand (without attribututing motives) is how it is that asking questions based on the assumption that theologians may suffer from it the same as scientists seems to be taken as an unfair tactic.
OUCH, that is a harsh way of putting it. God's existence would be in non-existence.
I suppose an example near at hand for what you mean would be intelligence. The problem that this is runs into is that intelligence derives its stuff from existing things. As Hume knew, existence cannot be deduced from essence. It must be the other way around. Indeed existing things are the content determinig causes of our thinking and knowing. As Gilson writes, "All real knowledges is by nature both essential and existential. Being does not come first in the sense that what comes next no longer is being. Being comes first and it stays there."
Gilson continues it a fine description of participation:
To know a thing is to be it in an intellectual way. The classical refutation of adequatio rei et intellectus which the concept is supposed to be a passive reflection of reality, entirely misses the point. It may well apply to naive essentialism, but it by no means applies to a noetic in which the knowledge of essence rests upon the vital conjunction of two acts of existing. Even abstract knowledge is not the mere copying of an essence by an intellect; it is the intellectual becoming of an actual essence in an intellectual being.
Wouldn't the distinction "possible" and "actual" be sufficient? The terms of negation work too quick to efface the participatory nature of all things.
Your best friend won't tell you but I will. Matter is pure potential. When combined with form you get stuff, the very stuff that makes up the pile.
This started over what seemed to be a fairly straighforward, logical question. Given that both dogma and observeration may be either true or false, how do we test them to make that determination?
Testing observations doesn't seem to be particularly problematic - we do it all the time.
Testing dogma seems to be a different proposition altogether. So much so that the original comparison seems to be of little no practical consequence.
I don’t mind, but the game isn’t determinism versus free will. There is another, as been known for at least the 2000 years since Jesus’ biographer was taking notes. Longer if you like Plato’s tales.
tacticalogic: It seems to be generally agreed that dogma isn't subject to the "observer problem"
It seems rather that you need to make up your mind and follow through.
Or both.
LoL.. Well thats an observation... also in evidence, the whole summary daily production of a human body is released while sitting.. not standing.. The human spirit's production is not earth bound..
Don’t like Aristotle? Can’t blame someone for that. Even the Church didn’t like Aristotle. Lots of people got in trouble.
Observation is obvious to the observer.. but to an observer with a different vista.. another observation may seem strange or even in error.. i.e. the Observer problem..
Whos correct?, or even more correct?, or has blind spots?..
All three could be possible with all observers(us)..
I put the question to you earlier with regards to whether dogma was immune to the problem and you seemed to think that was an accurate assesment. The ubiquity of the "observer problem" with regards to observation doesn't seem to be in question.
So far all I've done is try and clarify exactly what the terms being used mean and how they're being applied.
I'd like to get the ducks more or less in a row before I make up my mind if that's alright with you.
Went over my head.. ZOOOOM..
It would seem that if your scientific credibility is being criticized, it is being done because the final arbiter for you seems to be not logic or reason, but of faith and divine; two things that are unknowable and unprovable through empirical scientific means.
It is therefore justified that people wouldn't bother using reason or logic to convince you, since you've admitted that those two things aren't the primary decision makers for you.
Why bother using scientific evidence if "God did it" can be used to prove anything?
Darwin’s House: A Religious Shrine?
“An article quoted Darwin scholar James Moore saying, ‘Muslims go to Mecca, Christians go to Jerusalem, Darwinians go to Downe.’ This seems to equate Darwinians with believers in a religion, but Nature quoted this proudly.”
http://www.freerepublic.com/^http://creationsafaris.com/crev200706.htm#20070628a
And let’s not forget Richard Dawkins, a scientists who speaks for millions of the Darwinist faithful:
“In 2005 online magazine ‘Edge The World Question Centre’ posed the following question to a number of scientific intellectuals: ‘What do you believe is true even though you cannot prove it?’ Dawkins revealingly answered: ‘I believe that all life, all intelligence, all creativity and all ‘design’ anywhere in the universe, is the direct or indirect product of Darwinian natural selection.’”
http://www.iscid.org/papers/Williams_GodDelusionReview_02012007.pdf
Sounds like religion to me-—GGG
That’s okay. Most of the Aristotelians fled to England. Or Russia. Those who remained in France began to doubt their own existence, and that trend continues.
Dawkins has no standing here. Fortunately, Jesus loves him anyway.
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