Romney Can't Ignore Questions About Mormonism

RealClearPolitics ^ | 8/20/2007 | Mark Davis

[mojito]

Even though Mitt Romney can't seem to dislodge Rudy Giuliani atop the national GOP polls, and can't even draw as much poll support as Fred Thompson, who isn't even running yet, there is an understandable anticipatory buzz about him.

He may well be the eventual choice of his party if the Thompson phenomenon fizzles or if Giuliani supporters simply grow weary of navigating the obstacles posed by his past and his politics.

In an appearance in Texas last week, I saw Romney energize a crowd with just the kind of speech a GOP nominee should give-- strong and unapologetic on the war, upbeat and resolute about the future. This is a typical Romney performance, and it earns him speculation that he has nowhere to go but up.

This is wholly deserved. But the issue of his religion, which some say has been overplayed, has in fact not been addressed with nearly the thoroughness and honesty that will be necessary to satisfy some in the Republican voting base.

It has not been addressed well by the candidate, and it has not been handled honestly by pundits. Until it is, it lurks as a torpedo that could spell the doom of his promising candidacy.

[Rameumptom]

>>>I never claimed to speak for Christ and to say that you have not received His salvation.

That is exactly what you do when you say Mormons are not Christian. I am Mormon, I am Christian, I am a follower of Christ. I appreciate that your family has a life dedicated to Christ. I draw the line however when you use that to say Mormons cannot equally be converted to Christ.

Interestingly my family's Christ related service parralells some of your own. My own grandfather was District President over Minnesota, South and North Dakota and Iowa. My other Grandfather served a mission in pre-war Germany bringing the message of Christ in a time it was dangerous to do so. He and his companion got arrested by the gestapo once. He tok a picture of Hitler in a parade and the S.S. took his camera away.

I rejoice that your family dedicated their lives to Christ.

[JRochelle]

Read the book, Under the Banner of Heaven. Its a very good book about religious extremism in modern America.

Its about the FLDS.

[samtheman]

Ayn Rand. I guess I’m wrong. You really were an atheist.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m no Ayn Rand acolyte. I’m no acolyte of any kind.

But you’ve convinced me. You really have been around the block!

[Pan_Yans Wife]

I QUOTED Smith, I didn’t offer an explanation of comparative religions.

[Extremely Extreme Extremist]

The Republican Party is merely the Democrat Party's "away" jersey

LOLOLOLOL

That has got to be the greatest tag line of all time.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

Go back and RE-READ what you quoted me as saying.

I cannot determine if YOU have salvation.

I cannot determine if my brother-in-law has salvation.

I cannot determine if my husband has salvation.

I cannot determine if my son has salvation.

This is God’s decision to make, alone.

I believe I have found salvation through Christ. That is the ONLY salvation that I can accurately gauge. Everyone else has their own walk with Christ.

[BlueMoose]

Ah yes the antislavery stance caused an uproar in Missouri.

[DanielLongo]

I followed the thread of your discussion and wanted to chime in. Forgive me for "cutting-in". I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and believe I am sufficiently versed in the doctrine taught. The only thing I take exception with is that bigcat32 said "we", members, do not like to discuss our religion. For me there is nothing I like to talk about more. I give credit to bigcat32 for not sensationalizing what are very accurate representations of what we know. I believe the only divergent point in his post #89 was he tried to rest his objections in the cradle of "the rest of Christianity". It is true that the Church is like no other, in doctrine or in practice. We cite other revealed scripture because we do not hold that the heavens are closed or that God does not speak to His children today. That said, I assert the doctrines bigcat32 listed as being true. There are some, few, that are extra-Biblical, but none are anti-Biblical. If you have the patience to be a mediator Turret, I offer that challenge to bigcat32, to disprove our doctrine from the Bible. It should be interesting. As a starting point I'll take his first statement in the earlier post:

Do Mormons believe that they will one day become like God and populate their own planets? Can you elaborate on this aspect of your beliefs? Do Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the spiritual brother of Satan?

Rev. 3: 21

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

John 10

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

The only place you find in the scriptures where someone says it is blasphemy to accept what Christ has promised, the achievement of godhood through Jesus Christ, is from the very people who killed the Lord.

I can in brief explain the "populate planets" question. Again this is extra-Biblical, but not anti-Biblical. Indeed, the Lord God never said the Bible was the final or only testimony that He has given or ever will give to His children. In essence, the Lord's work is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. The universe is an eternal dominion where intelligence is raised up, created (in the sense that one gathers the materials to build a ship - not to mean "creating something out of nothing"). The universe has no beginning and no end. We are here in a part of our progression as intelligent beings to be tested and tried, as the scriptures say, to be proven herewith whether we will keep all the commandments of the Lord. This mortal experience far from being a mere test of principles is calculated to give us experience and knowledge. It is a path that our Father encourages us along out of love and the desire that we have every happiness that He now enjoys. As any loving father, he desires the best for us. We are obedient because we understand (hopefully) that He is the only source of that light and knowledge. In the eternities we engage in that grand work, to organize, to bring forth, to exalt and continue the work of God. His joy is found in the uplifting of all. His joy is increased as we find joy. This is why element obeys Him.

Now for your second question.

Do Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the spiritual brother of Satan?

Once more you cannot show me in the scriptures where it says that this is not the case. But disproving a negative is a circular mire. Let me tell you what we believe.

The "work" which I described above did not begin here on earth. We are all children of our Father in Heaven, spiritually begotten.

Num. 16: 22 (Num. 27: 16) God of the spirits of all flesh.

Job 3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. 4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Eccl. 12: 7 the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Jer. 1: 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee.

Zech. 12: 1 Lord . . . formeth the spirit of man within him.

John 9: 2 who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind. (implying of course that the man had a premortal existence, otherwise how could he have sinned before birth)

Acts 17: 28 poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Rom. 8: 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.

Eph. 1: 4 chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.

Heb. 12: 9 subjection unto the Father of spirits.

Jude 1: 6 angels which kept not their first estate.(Our knowledge is that this "first estate" refers to their allegiance to Father. Those who were not were cast out. Mind you, not for a "disagreement", but for rebellion. Father is very long suffering and would have witheld this ultimate action were it possible. But Lucifer rebelled and drew a third of the host of heaven after him. He, like ourselves was not robbed of his agency, his ability to choose. He chose disasterously wrong- as did those who followed his council.)

Rev. 12: 7 Michael and his angels fought against the dragon. (We believe that Michael was/is also one of our spirit brothers)

I took some time to put these thoughts down and my time is precious- family and so forth. I would like to continue if you are at all interested and have read this. If not, please reply and say so.

[DanielLongo]

None of them have ever even hinted that they believe God will reward them for any works. They believe that they are saved through grace of Christ’s work on the Cross. They know that it is only their faith in Christ, and any other’s faith in Christ that is sufficient. Works have nothing to do with salvation.

Ruth 2: 12 12 The LORD recompense thy work, and a full reward be given thee of the LORD God of Israel, under whose wings thou art come to trust.

2 Chr. 15: 7 7 Be ye strong therefore, and let not your hands be weak: for your work shall be rewarded.

Job 7:1 Is there not an appointed time to man upon earth? are not his days also like the days of an hireling? 2 As a servant earnestly desireth the shadow, and as an hireling looketh for the reward of his work:

Prov. 11: 18 18 The wicked worketh a deceitful work: but to him that soweth righteousness shall be a sure reward.

Isa. 40: 10 16 Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.

Matt. 7: 21, 24, 26

21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

• • • 24 ¶ Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: • • • 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

James 2: 14, 17-18, 20, 22, 24, 26 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? • • • 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. • • • 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? • • • 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? • • •

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

• • • 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

[Binghamton_native]

Getting this back to Mitt Romney. I don’t know the answer to this question, but I believe it is a fair question to ask. Are any of the pronouncements of the LDS President authoritative for Mormons in the same way the “ex cathedra” pronouncements from the Pope are authoritative for Roman Catholics?

[Pan_Yans Wife]

Ephesians 2:8-9:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

[DanielLongo]

No. If they were, I would expect to see better behavior from Harry Ried. Unlike many of the evangelical churches that want to cast that illusion, the Church does not allow for any political speakers or literature within the buildings. I do not believe the Catholic Church does either. It is interesting, isn't it? I find it even more intruiging that on the political scence, the leaders of the evangelical churches are very vocal to condemn or support a candidate on the basis of their "religiosity". And yet, we are the ones the public is concerned with as having an ear to close too theologic impressions.

[the invisib1e hand]

the dems have got to be loving this "religious talk" that they probably got started to begin with. It's no-lose for them (everyone knows they're too sophisticated for that) and absolutely chalk full of spin-fodder for those who allow themselves to be sucked into the charade.

My religion? I'm Catholic, what are you? Next question, please?

[DanielLongo]

I gave you the words of Christ himself and of James who was with Him in His mortal ministry. As anticipated, you quote from Paul who is the only one to cast doubt on the doctrine of works and faith. For that reason I posted Peter's warning that Paul's words are hard to be understood and many wrest them to their destruction. The devil would like everyone to believe that we don't need to do good, only say we believe in Christ. Jesus gave us his opinion of that philosophy quite clearly. As again in James:

James 2: 19

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

If it were enough to just believe in God, the devils would be saved.

[colorcountry]

Here is a summary of a discourse given by the President (Prophet)Ezra Taft Benson of the LDS Church regarding following the Prophet.

In conclusion, let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet,” for our salvation hangs on them.

First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.

Fifth: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.

Sixth: The prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the Lord” to give us scripture.

Seventh: The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.

Eighth: The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.

Ninth: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.

Tenth: The prophet may be involved in civic matters.

Eleventh: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

Twelfth: The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.

Thirteenth: The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.

Fourteenth: The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed; reject them and suffer.

You may find the entirety of the speech at http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/priesthood/prophets/follow_the_prophet.html

[Binghamton_native]

I’m thinking of a pronouncement regarding something that is not currently on the political horizon. Something that would be necessary doctrine for a Mormon to ascribe to or be declared apostate. The fact that the LDS President does not agree with Harry Reid politically does not address my question.

[Edit35]

ANY Christian who took a good, deep look at the foundations and doctrine of the Mormon church would walk away wondering why this cult is given any creedence...

Most Republicans (including myself) would have NO problem voting for a Jew, even though he or she rejects my Christian belief of redemption and salvation.

Yet those same people are going loopy over Romney's Mormon beliefs, even though the tenants of his religion are approx. 80-percent in common with mainstream Christianity.

It just don't make sense.

[DanielLongo]

Denying that Jesus is the Christ would be a sign of apostacy. It is not my intent to be flippant. Is this what you mean? If someone strove to lead people from the teachings of the Church, I’m sure that would be considered apostacy. If you refer instead to excommunication or being “removed” from the body of the Church, murder and adultery would be two that would qualify. Is this what you mean?

[Pan_Yans Wife]

1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 4And patience, experience; and experience, hope: 5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. 6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. 12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Let me say right now, if you do not understand the meaning of FREE GIFT, and think that that means you have to WORK for this FREE GIFT, I have nothing else to discuss with you. Because if we cannot agree on the nature of this gift, we cannot discuss the rewards of this gift.

[colorcountry]

I have been declared apostate right here on this board. You'd better believe Mormons must toe the mark or be excommunicated.

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