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Guide to Survive our Future Socialist Government
February 25, 2008 | Isara

Posted on 02/25/2008 2:41:29 PM PST by Isara

Folks, whether you avoid thinking about it or not, we may be governed by socialists in all three branches of our government next year. We are going to get a Liberal administration one way or another. We already have Liberal judges all over the country. In the worst-case scenario, we would also get a bigger-margin Democratic congress with Liberals in the leadership positions. As conservatives we don't feel doom and gloom all the time as Liberals do (except now they have 'hope and change'). Lives go on. A good thing about being a conservative is that we prepare for a rainy day.

We can't do anything to change the mess that is going on in our country overnight. It is an accumulation of the ills in the society, planned or unplanned, from mal-education to entitlement mentality, Oprahfication, dishonest media, immorality, multi-culturalism, political correctness, motivations initiated by envy, fear and/or hatred and so on. It seems that all the fruits of these errors are going to ripen at the same time.

Let's brainstorm what may happen and prepare for it right now. We still have almost a year to do whatever necessary to protect our families and ourselves. Hopefully, we still have strength left afterwards to reclaim our country back to be a shining city upon the hill again.


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: comingdarkness; dramaqueen; government; guide; leftism; predicament; recession; socialist; survive; survivingsocialism
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I would like to keep this thread as a depot for resources to help us survive our future government. Please post your ideas on the most likely scenario and what we could do to protect ourselves.
1 posted on 02/25/2008 2:41:30 PM PST by Isara
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To: Isara
First, let's start with the most extreme scenario of 'change.' It's less likely to happen but let's get it out of the way.

Scenario: Is it possible that our country is going to turn into another Venezuela? With a lot of youths just out from Liberal public schools and colleges and highly motivated by misguided 'hope and change', anything can happen. Moreover, many are looking for opportunities to create chaos, such as, communists, anarchists and terrorists.

Possible Reactions:

  1. Sell everything and move out of the country. Is there anywhere else on earth as good as our country for us to escape to?
  2. Carve out a few states and secede. Which states?
  3. Create an underground organization to fight back. Better start now because they are going to shut down or bug any communication. Networking with right-minded people who you can trust. It would be tough with snitchers around especially your own kids.
  4. Shrug. Flip hamburgers for a living instead, assuming that we will still have McDonald's and the like.
  5. Build a hidden Shangri-la with high-tech protection and, of course, with John Galt at the helm.

2 posted on 02/25/2008 2:42:15 PM PST by Isara
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To: Isara
It's likely that there will be milder scenario of 'change' at first such as, socialist healthcare, higher taxes, more regulations, fairness doctrine (I know that Rush will take care of himself), etc. before it slowly 'progresses' into full-blown socialism if we let them. We heard about the pendulum swaying back and forth, but it's never swung back to the previous right, has it? What it does is moving further and further to the left. We have to wean people off the dependency on the government. Do you think this will happen when the dependency is a goal for politicians?

Scenario: New regulations and taxes will lead to a recession. How did you survive the malaise in 1970's?

Possible Reactions:

  1. Look for more sources of income.
  2. Cut spending.
  3. Consume less.
  4. Get a secure job with the government.
  5. Get rid of growth stocks and buy commodity stocks except the big oil. They are going to take the profit from the big oil.

Talking about big oil, I heard the ads from American Petroleum Institute (API) informing people that they, too, own big oil if they have pension fund. People in businesses are already starting to protect themselves and their employees from a drastic 'change' by our own socialist government.

I bet that in boardrooms all over the world, the executives and their advisors are discussing constringency plans in case that the US government turns far left. So should we.

3 posted on 02/25/2008 2:43:19 PM PST by Isara
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To: Isara; All
shame on you! you might as well be telling people how to prepare the spare bedroom for the home invaders.

Does anyone take being an American seriously?

4 posted on 02/25/2008 2:44:42 PM PST by the invisib1e hand (the model prescribes the required behavior. disincentives ensure compliance.)
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To: Isara

Take the children and yourself
And hide out in the cellar
By now the fighting will be close at hand
Don’t believe the church and state
And everything they tell you
Believe in me, I’m with the high command

There’s a gun and ammunition
Just inside the doorway
Use it only in emergency
Better you should pray to God
The Father and the Spirit
Will guide you and protect from up here

Swear allegiance to the flag
Whatever flag they offer
Never hint at what you really feel
Teach the children quietly
For some day sons and daughters
Will rise up and fight while we stood still

Can you hear me, can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running, can you hear me calling you?
Can you hear me, can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running, can you hear me calling you?
Can you hear me, can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running, can you hear me calling you?


5 posted on 02/25/2008 2:45:00 PM PST by Skywalk (Transdimensional Jihad!)
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To: Isara

6 posted on 02/25/2008 2:45:30 PM PST by The_Republican (You know why Chelsea Clinton is so Ugly? Because Janet Reno is her Father! LOL! - Mac is Back!)
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To: Isara

I am going to buy some ammo for sure. Maybe start listing myself as minority on government forms.


7 posted on 02/25/2008 2:47:28 PM PST by Sybeck1 (It's truly bad when your Savior in November is Judas Himself.)
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To: the invisib1e hand

Thank you for your input. This is a brainstorming session. Do you have any more instructive suggestion?


8 posted on 02/25/2008 2:49:53 PM PST by Isara
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To: Isara; RKBA Democrat

I posted my thoughts a few weeks ago.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1969971/posts

RKBA, for the ping list...


9 posted on 02/25/2008 2:50:33 PM PST by oblomov
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To: Isara

I would begin moonshining, but everything you could ferment would already be so sky high and rationed.

Prepare stories for my children about when the government let you have more than one pair of shoes a lifetime.


10 posted on 02/25/2008 2:54:13 PM PST by Sybeck1 (It's truly bad when your Savior in November is Judas Himself.)
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To: oblomov

Thank you very much. It’s very useful.


11 posted on 02/25/2008 2:54:35 PM PST by Isara
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To: Isara

Montana already has prepared papers to secede.


12 posted on 02/25/2008 2:54:55 PM PST by ridesthemiles
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To: Sybeck1
"I am going to buy some ammo for sure. Maybe start listing myself as minority on government forms."

I've thought about doing this for some time now. I think the idea has merit.

13 posted on 02/25/2008 2:55:59 PM PST by Desron13 (If you constantly vote between the lesser of two evils then evil is your ultimate destination.)
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To: ridesthemiles

I guess this Mississippi boy should get used to cold weather in the high plains.


14 posted on 02/25/2008 2:56:57 PM PST by Sybeck1 (It's truly bad when your Savior in November is Judas Himself.)
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To: Isara

I vote for option #3 and the sooner the better.


15 posted on 02/25/2008 3:00:58 PM PST by ▀udda▀udd (7 days - 7 ways Guero >>> with a floating, shifting, ever changing persona....)
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To: Isara
It's likely that there will be milder scenario of 'change' at first such as, socialist healthcare, higher taxes, more regulations, fairness doctrine (I know that Rush will take care of himself), etc. before it slowly 'progresses' into full-blown socialism if we let them. We heard about the pendulum swaying back and forth, but it's never swung back to the previous right, has it? What it does is moving further and further to the left.

Always & RUSH keeps telling you that this country is getting more conservative. What a crock. I would predict that 12 yrs from now if 85% don't own a gun to protect themselves they are goners. When the Wall Streeters get done fleecing every drop out of the workers there will be nothing left but government handouts Y'all were too lazy or too dumb to fight them when there was a chance. Today they(elites)make no pretense of what is coming.

16 posted on 02/25/2008 3:02:34 PM PST by Digger (If RINO is your selection, then failure is your election)
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To: ridesthemiles

We take back the Republican Party one town selctman, one county commissioner, one legistator and so forth at a time.
We have lawyers ready to sue left wing professor for harrassement-e.g. Duke University.
We fight for term limits where ever we can. We use the initiative and referendum when and where we can.
We get slowly get rid of all of the get along go along Republican Rinos one election at a time

I am old enough to remember what was said after 1964 and 1974. The party came back with Reagan in 1980 and took the Senate.
I am not so pessimistic about November. Hillary is desperate and Barry has ties to people in the Weatherman faction of SDS.


17 posted on 02/25/2008 3:02:35 PM PST by Maine Mariner
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To: Isara
I think you raise an interesting question. Many here state that as the conservative party...we don’t protest, etc. Well, why not...it is one of our Rights and we have given it away for many years. Now, is the time to take back our Rights.

1. Is indeed our Right to Assembly and yes those connections should not be ‘underground’ and hidden.

2. I intend to purchase several firearms in the next 6 months.

3. I’ve been considering going ‘cash,’ but truly am not convinced it will be of value in a year from now.

4. Victory Gardens, food has already been forecast as a potential shortage and taking the hardest inflationary hit.

5. Frugality. I’ve been visiting a good website that helps with relearning the old skills of being frugal with ones money...starting with the grocery budget. HillBilly Housewife.

6. Homeschooling. If I had children.

7. Potentially moving. Montana has been looking promising as their constitution has a clause about gun ownership. We get a gun-grab, then Montana reverts to a territory if they want. And if enough of us move there, then we can vote for territory status for violation of the statehood contract. (OK...it is a wild idea.)

18 posted on 02/25/2008 3:06:07 PM PST by EBH ( ... the riotousness of the crowd is always very close to madness. --Alculin c.735-804)
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To: Isara
I can only give you the experience of my friends and relatives who survived the USSR.

First option: Leave
My grandfather took his entire family out of communist Russia, many others flee socialist countries to any remaining countries where they can survive.

Second option: Black Market Marketable skills
Many people who live in socialist countries have second or third jobs that earn money under the table.

Bribery is rampant in all socialist economies. Socialism creates instant black markets for goods or services rationed by the government. Doctors in Russia routinely accept bribes, as to do doctors in Canada. As we live in a corridor with Mexico and goods/services are allowed freely through, importation and export of various goods will expand as demand grows. Now might be a good time to build a relationship with those that can import a wide variety of goods under the table.

Third: Precious Metals
As the currency becomes systematically destroyed, precious metals become extremely popular along with other valuable items such as diamonds.

Fourth: Barter Club
Create a network of individuals who are willing to barter goods and services. It can provide necessary services or goods when otherwise unavailable or unaffordable.

Fifth: Bribe public officials

Sixth: Start farming your own yard for food.

I will leave it from here for others to continue....

19 posted on 02/25/2008 3:08:09 PM PST by Nachum
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To: ridesthemiles
Montana already has prepared papers to secede.

Are you serious? I heard of a project picking the best state for free people to concentrate and keep it that way. It came down to Wyoming and New Hampshire. That was a few years ago. New Hampshire is already gone to the dark side.

20 posted on 02/25/2008 3:10:40 PM PST by Isara
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To: Isara
Bump
To read later
21 posted on 02/25/2008 3:17:34 PM PST by Fiddlstix (Warning! This Is A Subliminal Tagline! Read it at your own risk!(Presented by TagLines R US))
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Buy lots and lots and lots of ammo.


22 posted on 02/25/2008 3:23:03 PM PST by retr0 (He who argues with a fool is an even greater fool.)
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To: EBH; Nachum

We have been thinking about subsistence farming. Maybe it’s time to do more research on it.


23 posted on 02/25/2008 3:24:54 PM PST by Isara
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To: Isara
We have been thinking about subsistence farming.

Its a fantastic measurement of poverty. The more people engaged in low productivity subsistence farming the lower the standard of living.

24 posted on 02/25/2008 3:33:01 PM PST by AdamSelene235 (Truth has become so rare and precious she is always attended to by a bodyguard of lies.)
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To: Isara
We have been thinking about subsistence farming. Maybe it’s time to do more research on it.

Check out a magazine called "Countryside & Small Stock Journal". Lots of good articles re: homesteading, living off the grid and just plain common sense advice on escaping the rat race. Lots of articles by those who have successfully done so.

"Mother Earth" is for the Yuppie wannabees, "Countryside" is for the dirt-on-the-overalls types.

25 posted on 02/25/2008 3:35:22 PM PST by Oatka (A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." ľBertrand de Jouvenel)
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To: Isara
5 key crop types to consider

Root crops: sweet potatoes, potatoes, carrots
Grass crops: corn, sorghum
Legumes: beans, peanuts
Leafy vegetables: cabbage, lettuce, spinach,
Fruits: tomatoes, eggplant, cucumbers

26 posted on 02/25/2008 3:38:45 PM PST by EBH ( ... the riotousness of the crowd is always very close to madness. --Alculin c.735-804)
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To: Skywalk

I have been thinking about the possible coming socialism.

Certainly, get arms and ammo now, before any more restrictions are put on them, makes sense. Be willing to lie about ownership if the gov’ment wants to ‘register’ your weapons.

Pay down debt. They will be taxing you out the ying-yang. What little money you have left in your paycheck, you want to belong to you, not your creditors.

I agree w/the poster who said ‘get a government job.’ Tho it doesn’t need to be w/the government, you need some kind of job that is either recession or illegal alien proof.

Eat and live simply - Keep your money for buying private medical service (if it’s still available), ‘cause you will get effec at the state-run national healthcare.

Eat and live simply - Keep your money for gasoline, which they will tax so that it’s $10 a gallon so that people have an ‘incentive’ to take the bus.

Keep your mouth shut - I see a Hillary Clinton administration as one as close to a communist, informer regime as anything since Russia. Hillary has some severe personal issues with power and control. She doesn’t care if she’s liked, which means she’ll do anything to anybody. Bubba, tho he wants power, has a psychological need to be liked. He will compromise, he’ll look for the good time, and the smiling photo-op. Hillary is his polar opposite.

I expect to see kids in Red Pioneer kerchiefs - the Boy and Girl Scouts will be disbanded as too conservative or not diverse enough or some other BS. Kids will rat on parents for not recycling or for smoking.

It ain’t pretty.


27 posted on 02/25/2008 3:42:09 PM PST by radiohead (I stood up for Fred at the Iowa Caucus. Where were the rest of you so-called conservatives?)
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To: EBH

How do you protect the crops from the creatures?


28 posted on 02/25/2008 3:42:26 PM PST by Isara
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To: Sybeck1
I am going to buy some ammo for sure. Maybe start listing myself as minority on government forms.

I occasionally put "Native American" on forms. After all I WAS born here. Another approach is to check the "Other" box and leave the space blank. :^)

29 posted on 02/25/2008 3:43:36 PM PST by Disambiguator
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To: Isara

BLOAT

and tomorrow and the day after that .. and...

30 posted on 02/25/2008 3:45:19 PM PST by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: Skywalk
Can you hear me, can you hear me running? Can you hear me running, can you hear me calling you?

Great song.In May of 2002, Universal Studios released a "COLLECTORS EDITION" DVD of the full wide-screen version of "Silent Running", including a full version of the above documentary, as well as the usual director's and actor's comentary tracks, collections of still pictures, etc. The 50 minute documentary is a true collectors item for film buffs and science fiction fans and it, alone, is worth the price of the new DVD. You can find this DVD at some retail outlets or you can order it from Yahoo at the following URL: http://shopping.yahoo.com/shop?d=v&id=1800117652

31 posted on 02/25/2008 3:45:57 PM PST by mjp (Live & let live. I don't want to live in Mexico, Marxico, or Muslimico. Statism & high taxes suck)
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To: ridesthemiles
I found it.

Montanans Insist on Gun Rights

32 posted on 02/25/2008 3:54:31 PM PST by Isara
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To: Travis McGee

PING!


33 posted on 02/25/2008 3:56:02 PM PST by investigateworld ( Abortion stops a beating heart.)
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To: AdamSelene235
The more people engaged in low productivity subsistence farming the lower the standard of living.

True, but during the Great Depression, other than those who lost their farms due to early "bad choices", farmers didn't go hungry, and had a place to live out of the weather. They might have had to burn corn cobs(when the cob pile wasn't frozen) or even cow chips, but they got by. Folks in the cities didn't fare as well. My mother's family was the one burning corn cobs. My father's mother had it rougher, but she had brothers who were farmers, and had a land of her own that one of them farmed. She, my Dad, my Aunt and my Uncle didn't starve, but she did other peoples laundry and cleaned other people's houses to get by, and there weren't many folks in her part of town that needed and could afford those services, so she had to take the street car across town to where the "big houses" were. My Dad did too, to shovel the walks of the people who lived in those big houses. He also pen raised quail and pheasants for a little extra cash, and also bantam chickens for fun, and for eggs. The culls became chicken soup.

34 posted on 02/25/2008 3:59:37 PM PST by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: Nachum
The basic idea of socialism is the re-distribution of wealth. Given that, I think the best course would be to avoid accumulating anything easily identifiable as "wealth". Definitely not cash. Precious metals have tended to be confiscated "for the greater good".

Copper, lead, brass, bronze, nickel, titanium, magnesium, zinc, aluminum, carbides, etc. would seem nearly as negotiable in a barter economy, and much less likely to draw unwanted attention.

35 posted on 02/25/2008 4:02:48 PM PST by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: Isara

BTTT


36 posted on 02/25/2008 4:13:49 PM PST by 1COUNTER-MORTER-68 (THROWING ANOTHER BULLET-RIDDLED TV IN THE PILE OUT BACK~~~~~)
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To: The_Republican
Anejo! Mmmmmmmmmmm....

I gave a bottle of that to my brother in law. He made margaritas with it. I never talked to him again. Fortunately my sister got rid of his pathetic a$$.

37 posted on 02/25/2008 4:14:59 PM PST by Brucifer (G. W. Bush "The dog ate my copy of the Constitution.")
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To: Isara
but it's never swung back to the previous right, has it? What it does is moving further and further to the left.

Think of a pendulum swinging on a ship that is listing heavily to port (left). With the ship (America) as the reference, it looks like it is only moving farther left. With respect to the earth (God's universe) the swing of the pendulum hasn't changed at all, it must swing about the gravity vector. The only thing that changes is the perspective of the observer, (at least that's what I tell myself when I thing about the phenomenon you point out). If you're going to start a ping list for this thread, please count me in.

38 posted on 02/25/2008 4:26:22 PM PST by j_tull (Massachusetts, the Gay State. Once leader of the American Revolution, now leading its demise.)
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To: El Gato

Even if our standard of living fell 5X we would not reduced to a position where subsistence farming would be a net improvement.


39 posted on 02/25/2008 4:26:47 PM PST by AdamSelene235 (Truth has become so rare and precious she is always attended to by a bodyguard of lies.)
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To: El Gato

Just for the record, I don’t expect American’s standard of living to fall anymore than 3X.


40 posted on 02/25/2008 4:27:43 PM PST by AdamSelene235 (Truth has become so rare and precious she is always attended to by a bodyguard of lies.)
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To: Isara; All
Folks, whether you avoid thinking about it or not, we may be governed by socialists in all three branches of our government next year.

The sad truth is that the people have only themselves to blame if they find themselves governed by socialists next year. More specifically, regardless that we have a Constitution that favors conservative values, ignorance of the Constitution and how the government is supposed to work is epidemic. Such ignorance is evidenced by the following links.

http://tinyurl.com/npt6t
http://tinyurl.com/hehr8
The consequence of widespread constitutional ignorance is that the people are foolishly letting Godless Liberals (thanks Ann Coulter) walk all over their freedoms and steal their money. More specifically...

This post (<-click) tells how the Constitution-ignoring Supreme Court has robbed the states of their 10th A. protected powers. Such powers include the power to address religion and the power to address abortion.

And this post (<-click) explains why liberals are in contempt of the Constitution with respect to spending our tax dollars using non-existent federal government powers.

Again, the people have nobody to blame but themselves if they let socialists walk over their freedoms and steal their money next year, not that socialists aren't already doing these things

The bottom line is that the people need to wise up to what the Constitution actually says about their freedoms and federal government spending. The people need to quit sitting on their hands, and send Constitution-ignoring socialists home instead of letting them take over DC.

41 posted on 02/25/2008 4:28:07 PM PST by Amendment10
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To: AdamSelene235

“Look, there’s some lovely filth over here!”


42 posted on 02/25/2008 4:28:49 PM PST by j_tull (Massachusetts, the Gay State. Once leader of the American Revolution, now leading its demise.)
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To: Isara
We can't do anything to change the mess that is going on in our country overnight....

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.
Thomas Jefferson

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security

Declaration of Independence [Adopted in Congress 4 July 1776]

43 posted on 02/25/2008 4:36:59 PM PST by ATOMIC_PUNK (Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.)
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To: Isara

How do you protect the crops from the creatures?

grind up the hottest peppers you can grow, soak in water, strain, and spray your crops with this


44 posted on 02/25/2008 4:40:24 PM PST by Cohee
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To: Isara

Whenever I get paranoid, I start stockpiling rice, beans, sugar, coffee, peanut butter, tuna, bottled water, and matches. For some reason, I always feel better if I have all that in a “bug-out kit,” along with a back-up supply of blankets and clothes which I keep in the trunk of my car, as well as some hunting knives. My friends all think I’m nuts.


45 posted on 02/25/2008 4:44:12 PM PST by A_perfect_lady
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To: A_perfect_lady

Oh, and vodka.


46 posted on 02/25/2008 4:45:03 PM PST by A_perfect_lady
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To: j_tull

Funny, nobody had their panties in a wad when we living under right wing Socialists (R).


47 posted on 02/25/2008 4:54:47 PM PST by AdamSelene235 (Truth has become so rare and precious she is always attended to by a bodyguard of lies.)
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To: freespirited; oblomov; Jet Jaguar; wastedyears; nascarnation; Henry Belden; petercooper; ...
Surviving Socialism Pinglist
Stories and tips with a financial emphasis to help conservatives prosper during difficult times.

To be added or taken off this list, please send a FR mail to RKBA Democrat

48 posted on 02/25/2008 4:57:06 PM PST by RKBA Democrat (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner!)
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To: Isara
First of all, shift the immigration battle immediately to the STATE and LOCALITIES-LEVEL, and force lawmakers to get strict anti-illegal alien laws (on hiring, transporting, drivers licenses, residency, tuition, benefits, etc. etc.) passed across the land throughout this year. Granted, it won't pass in sanctuary counties, cities and states, but in many areas in the USA, it will. Fine.

Then throughout 2008 we can have both a shift/exodus of illegal alien population to the blue states, or self-repatriation/deportation by attrition as a fait d'accompli when they cannot get employed nor obtain benefits. Along with this, we need to FUND and IMMEDIATELY BUILD the DOUBLE FENCE from Gulf to Pacific, to complement this massive exodus and to not allow them to get back in, and thus reverse third worldization/Democrat vote-bank growth.

As much as can be done on immigration MUST be done throughout 2008--the clock is ticking and the window of opportunity is only 9 more months-- because come 2009 with either a President McCain, or President Clinton or President Obama, all HELL is going to break lose and the floodgates are going to burst with amnesty regardless. In the meantime, we need to get solid pro-border conservative renegade GOP candidates into the House and Senate. Now is the last chance for example to unseat Lindsey Graham. With spineless GOP politicians in office towing the line from President McCain on Immigration, we are going to be in a world of sh*it, so we better get done what can be done for the remainder of 2008. The illegal alien lobby knows our vulnerability. They cannot win on the local level, though.

If we lose on Immigration, the long term erosive politico-demographics are such that the USA is doomed to entrenched Statist/Socialist Liberal Democrat rule for centuries, and in that sense, there goes the neighborhood. Good things on WOT, school prayer, taxation, gay marraige, immigration, pro-life, support of troops, free speech/talk radio rights, gun rights, etc. will ALL GO DOWN THE TOILET for good based on our success or failure on this one, key, linchpin issue: Immigration.


49 posted on 02/25/2008 4:57:10 PM PST by AmericanInTokyo (Sean, Rush, Laura, Mark, Michelle, Neil, Michael nor others do ANY thinking for THIS conservative.)
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To: Isara

Even if one to were do the expat “escape” job, the US federal government would still track you down and send the bill despite which country you were in, and demand access to your wallet to fund increasingly large, social largesse under socialism for the underprivileged masses. You may even find yourself liable for both host country and US taxes simultaneously! You will have nothing left!


50 posted on 02/25/2008 4:59:16 PM PST by AmericanInTokyo (Sean, Rush, Laura, Mark, Michelle, Neil, Michael nor others do ANY thinking for THIS conservative.)
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