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The Demise of Another Evolutionary Link: Archaeopteryx Falls From Its Perch
Evolution News & Views ^ | October 26, 2009 | Casey Luskin

Posted on 10/27/2009 8:11:33 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts

The Demise of Another Evolutionary Link: Archaeopteryx Falls From Its Perch

A few days ago we saw Ida fall from her overhyped status as an ancestor of humans. Now some scientists are claiming that Archaeopteryx should lose its status as an ancestor of modern birds. Calling Archaeopteryx an “icon of evolution,” the Wall Street Journal (WSJ) borrows a term from Jonathan Wells while reporting that “[t]he feathered creature called archaeopteryx, easily the world's most famous fossil remains, had been considered the first bird since Charles Darwin's day. When researchers put its celebrity bones under the microscope recently, though, they discovered that this icon of evolution might not have been a bird at all.”

According to the new research, inferences about growth rates made from studies of Archaeopteryx’s ancient fossilized bones show it developed much more slowly than modern birds. While the WSJ is reporting these doubts about Archaeopteryx’s ancestral status as if they were something new, those who follow the intelligent design movement know that such skepticism has been around for quite some time. In his 2000 book Icons of Evolution, Jonathan Wells discussed differences between Archaeopteryx and modern birds and the implications for Archaeopteryx's place as an alleged link between dinosaurs and birds:

But there are too many structural differences between Archaeopteryx and modern birds for the latter to be descendants of the former. In 1985, University of Kansas paleontologist Larry Martin wrote: “Archaopteryx is not ancestral of any group of modern birds.” Instead it is “the earliest known member of a totally extinct group of birds." And in 1996 paleontologist Mark Norell, of the American Museum of Natural History in New York, called Archaeopteryx “a very important fossil,” but added that most paleontologists now believe it is not a direct ancestor of modern birds.

(Jonathan Wells, Icons of Evolution, p. 116 (Regnery, 2000).)Archaeopteryx isn’t the only evolutionary icon losing its claim as the ancestor of birds. In recent months we’ve seen paleontologists increasingly arguing that the entire clade of dinosaurs should no longer be considered ancestral to birds. As the WSJ article states:

There are lingering doubts that birds today are descendants of dinosaurs. Researchers at Oregon State University recently argued that the distinctive anatomy that gives birds the lung capacity needed for flight means it is unlikely that birds descended from dinosaurs like archaeopteryx and its kin. Their findings were published in June in the Journal of Morphology.
As paleontologist John Ruben of Oregon State was quoted saying when his article was published:
But old theories die hard, Ruben said, especially when it comes to some of the most distinctive and romanticized animal species in world history.

"Frankly, there's a lot of museum politics involved in this, a lot of careers committed to a particular point of view even if new scientific evidence raises questions," Ruben said. In some museum displays, he said, the birds-descended-from-dinosaurs evolutionary theory has been portrayed as a largely accepted fact, with an asterisk pointing out in small type that "some scientists disagree."

"Our work at OSU used to be pretty much the only asterisk they were talking about," Ruben said. "But now there are more asterisks all the time. That's part of the process of science."

("Discovery Raises New Doubts About Dinosaur-bird Links," ScienceDaily, June 9, 2009.)While "museum politics" seem to dominate now more than ever when it comes to evolution, it's nice to at least see some of those asterisks getting a little attention in a major media outlet like Wall Street Journal.



TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; US: Washington
KEYWORDS: antiscienceevos; belongsinreligion; catastrophism; catholic; christian; creation; darwindrones; evangelical; evolution; evoreligionexposed; godsgravesglyphs; intelligentdesign; judaism; notasciencetopic; paleontology; propellerbeanie; protestant; science; templeofdarwin
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To: scottdeus12
Please point out one single posts by bme that stats unequivocally that I "don’t like Christianity" sound of crickets..
41 posted on 10/27/2009 10:16:58 AM PDT by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: allmendream

I don’t think evolution happens rapidly. I do think variation within a species happens rapidly, comparatively.
I’ll not change your thinking and you’ll not change mine so lets just drop this now. I was replying to a post by a fellow creationist, not you.


42 posted on 10/27/2009 10:18:58 AM PDT by MGBGUN (Freedom is not free.)
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To: AUH2O Repub

The Bible clinched that. What this shows is scientist are not as infallible as the media trained masses think.


43 posted on 10/27/2009 10:22:06 AM PDT by demshateGod (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: demshateGod

Coming from someone who cannot separate the stories of the old testament from the simple instruction of the new.


44 posted on 10/27/2009 10:25:01 AM PDT by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: xcamel; metmom

Okay, here’s one of may favorites:

“So you’re going with the whole Adam/Eve/Cain Humanity-decended-from-incest route, eh? Good luck with that.”

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2353460/posts?q=1&;page=51

And I already know what you will say - that it’s not proof you don’t like Christians... but your contempt is showing.

Your posts remind me alot of this guy:

http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/by:coyoteman/index?brevity=full;tab=comments

Who has since been banned.


45 posted on 10/27/2009 10:30:18 AM PDT by scottdeus12 (Jesus is real, whether you believe in Him or not.)
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To: GodGunsGuts

What’s really funny about this post is that creationists for years, including this very same Casey Luskin, have been challenging Archaeopteryx’s status as an ancestor of modern birds by promoting Alan Feduccia’s theory that it was a true bird already. Now all of a sudden it’s not an ancestor because it’s not *enough* of a bird. Thus we see the progress of creation “science”—to heck with consistency, we’ll just cherry-pick and nitpick!

Of course, either way we have an animal that grew like a dinosaur but had feathers like a bird. But no way is it a transitional, nuh-uh, couldn’t be.


46 posted on 10/27/2009 10:32:20 AM PDT by Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
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To: metmom
How long has that fossil been around and someone is just getting around to examining it that closely?

If you read the article, you'd have seen that they took tiny chips of the fossil bones and put them under the microscope. People were reluctant to take chips of the bones before to avoid damaging them.

Shades of Piltdown Man.

Piltdown Man was a hoax, as you well know. Do you have any reason to think Archaeopteryx is a hoax, or are you just slinging mud as usual?

47 posted on 10/27/2009 10:35:57 AM PDT by Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
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To: xcamel

Coming from someone who cannot separate the stories of the old testament from the simple instruction of the new.”

WOW! So I see you are quite the Biblical scholar, also, eh?


48 posted on 10/27/2009 10:43:25 AM PDT by ConservativeDude
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To: Ev Reeman
If the idea is that Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?

If the idea is that American English derived from British English, why are people still speaking British English?

Monkeys fill an ecological niche, where there is a “demand” for monkeys, nature has provided a “supply”. The “demand” for monkeys up in the trees did not go away just because some monkeys came down from the trees and started living on the ground.

49 posted on 10/27/2009 11:03:21 AM PDT by allmendream (Wealth is EARNED not distributed, so how could it be RE-distributed?)
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To: MGBGUN
Variation within a species happening rapidly = evolution happening rapidly.

Where do you think this variation comes from?

If you want to drop the conversation I can certainly see why.

50 posted on 10/27/2009 11:04:49 AM PDT by allmendream (Wealth is EARNED not distributed, so how could it be RE-distributed?)
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To: whattajoke
You seem to rely on AIG's arguments alot. There is more than one website on the web. Not every one is the final answer on any subject. I was alive when Apollo 13 landed. I saw the scientists state they felt the moon dust would swallow the lander on TV with Walter Chronkite. Obviously they were wrong.

What I'm saying is the world of knowledge isn't owned by evo scientists. They have to change their stories minute by minute as the facts come in. To insist that everyone else is a knucklehead is just bigotry.

What I'm finding is science has been taken over by religious zealots and politics. An evo is every bit as religious as a catholic bishop. After Mt St Helens blew up, several scientists were sent there, grant money in hand for years, to study the recovery of the eco systems there. They opined on the healing process that would take decades if not 100 years. Well, the lakes healed and fish were back in in about a year and grass and animals returned in about the same time. They were sent home early because every thing they thought was untrue and the basis for the grant money was lost. They even commented on the canyon that was created in one day, if looked at years from now, would be thought to have taken millions of years to carve out had they not known the eruption did it in one day. Lakes disappeared and rivers changed directions in one short period. How can evo's( and climate scientists) know anything for certain if they can't even see what has happened right in front of them? How can someone know the Grand Canyon was carved out million of years ago? Just because a park ranger reads from a pamphlet? The truth is, if we could prove that it was carved out in a catastrophe 3000 years ago, they wouldn't change their story because it would cost to much to change the history books and it would damage their credibility after insisting it happened over "million's" of years. That's politics.

I watched the "Ardi" story and saw "science" made up on the spot and anyone could shoot holes in their "theory in 2 seconds, yet there it was on TV.

One person or group of person doesn't have the final word on anything. Beware of looking for proof to support what you think. One "Christian" site isn't the final word anymore than Dawkins is the final word for evo's.

51 posted on 10/27/2009 11:06:14 AM PDT by chuckles
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To: FormerRep
The scientific support for creation are the myriad of broken theories and attempts to explain away creation, using half-assed extrapolations that simply don't hold together.
Pretending that adaptation within a species explains transition from one species to another.
Then reverting to redefining species to rationalize the the phony stories.
Watching over the decades as charlatans attempt to use evolution to explain away God.
As though we're here by accident and without purpose....
52 posted on 10/27/2009 11:13:24 AM PDT by G Larry (DNC is comprised of REGRESSIVES!)
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To: allmendream

That’s pitiful....

Adaptation within a species is far different than the notion of a transition to a new species.

They can either breed in kind or not.
And then you’d have us believe that these shifts to a “new species” happen in sufficient numbers AT THE SAME TIME, so as to sustain the “new”....
...if you’d like to stop, I can see why....


53 posted on 10/27/2009 11:18:13 AM PDT by G Larry (DNC is comprised of REGRESSIVES!)
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To: G Larry

So what part of your diatribe represents scientific research on the part of creationists?


54 posted on 10/27/2009 11:22:49 AM PDT by FormerRep
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To: G Larry
Your reasoning is pitiful.

Adaptation within a species is evolution by definition.

It might help if you knew you were arguing against “common descent” and not “evolution”, but you obviously don't know enough about the subject to differentiate the two.

New species arise not by the genetic changes within an individual; but from the changes and selective pressures within an entire interbreeding population; much as the selective pressure of living in Europe led to pale skin in the populations that lived there.

So where does this variation that you and other creationists propose happens thousands of times faster than any evolutionary biologist proposed COME FROM? Did you not understand the question the first time, or are you trying to avoid it?

55 posted on 10/27/2009 11:24:19 AM PDT by allmendream (Wealth is EARNED not distributed, so how could it be RE-distributed?)
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To: scottdeus12

You are really handy with strawmen, eh?

Post hoc ergo proptor hoc. (look it up)


56 posted on 10/27/2009 11:24:42 AM PDT by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: ConservativeDude

Another one of the bats in GGG’s belfry, I assume?


57 posted on 10/27/2009 11:26:10 AM PDT by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: FormerRep

The part that scientifically disproves all of the alternate evo-nonsense.

Creationists don’t pretend to know exactly how God did it.

But it’s quite easy to scientifically evaluate evolutionist theories and cite the gaps and conclusions that are a bridge too far.


58 posted on 10/27/2009 11:29:30 AM PDT by G Larry (DNC is comprised of REGRESSIVES!)
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To: xcamel

Fail.....


59 posted on 10/27/2009 11:31:53 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

Self assessment is good.. keep it up.


60 posted on 10/27/2009 11:32:52 AM PDT by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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