Posted on 03/29/2010 4:05:06 AM PDT by Freedom'sWorthIt
(This is NEWS - Please Keep This in Breaking News, Admin Moderators. It is not about "religion". It is about Current Events!)
1 Thessalonians 4: 13 - 18:
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Therefore comfort one another with these words.
That explains it.
Hi there you gotta give me more to understand that one...LOL! A little sleepy here this morning....
That explains it.
Yes, it does explain why I'm right.
If I had a dollar for every time I've heard a Catholic deny the absolute inerrancy and truthfulness of God's word, I'd be able to pay for Obamacare. It's a total joke.
Scripture-deniers are a dime a dozen, no matter what religion engages in it, including Catholics.
LOL!!
If I had a dollar for every time I’ve heard some Internet Jesus Jockey deny the teaching authority of the Church, which created God’s word as we know it, I’d be able to pay for Benny Hinn’s new Gulfstream G4SP jet ($36 million). It’s a total joke.
I’m not a scripture-denier. I’m a made-up baloney denier. And that’s what Dispensationalism and the rapture doctrine are: made-up baloney.
Happy Easter, by the way. If you celebrate Easter.
And you may have yourself convinced that the God-written Scriptures which detail the event of the Rapture are "made-up baloney", but there is too much prophecy of the God-written Scriptures which has been fulfilled in the last few thousand years for any puny human being, especially those who have anointed themselves the "representatives" and the "vicars" of Christ on earth, to declare that any portion of Scripture is "made-up baloney".
There have been more than enough posts in this thread that show beyond any shadow of doubt that the Rapture is an event which is detailed in the God-written Scriptures and that that event will happen.
Oh, by the way- the day you stand before Jesus Christ to give an account of your life, have fun explaining to Him how you, in your omniscience and omnipresent human "logic" and "wisdom", have decided that there are major portions of His Book that are "made-up baloney".
And that day will come, whether your local priest has given you permission to believe that the part of the God-written Bible which states that every single man will answer to God is true and infallible and inerrant or whether he hasn't.
Really? Did He mail it to you, or did it fall out of the sky, or what?
Whatever the case, the Bible that the rest of the world uses was compiled by the Catholic Church beginning with the Council of Laodicea around A.D. 360.
If the Bible was "created by the Church", how can Catholics account for the passage, "A bishop then, must be blameless, married but once, reserved, prudent, of good conduct, hospitable, a teacher...He should rule well his own household, keeping his children under control and perfectly respectful. For if a man cannot rule his own household, how is he to take care of the church of God?" (1 Tim. 3:2, 4-5). The Catholic Church does not allow a bishop to marry, while the Bible says "he must be married." Furthermore, if the Bible was "created by the Church", why did they write the Bible as it is, and feel the necessity of putting footnotes at the bottom of the page in effort to keep their subject from believing what is in the text? The Old Testament came through the Jews (God's chosen people of old) who had the holy oracles entrusted to them. Paul said, "What advantage then remains to the Jew, or what is the use of circumcision? Much in every respect. First, indeed, because the oracles of God were entrusted to them." (Rom. 3:1-2; Rom. 9:4-5; Acts 7:38).
Did the "Church" give us the Old Testament? The Old Testament books were gathered into one volume and were translated from Hebrew into Greek long before Christ came to earth. The Septuagint Version was translated by seventy scholars at Alexandria, Egypt around the year 227 B.C., and this was the version Christ and His apostles used. Christ did not tell the people, as Catholics do today, that they could accept the Scriptures only on the basis of the authority of those who gathered them and declared them to be inspired. He urged the people of His day to follow the Old Testament Scriptures as the infallible guide, not because man or any group of men has sanctioned them as such, but because they came from God.
If the Bible was "created by the Church":
God did not give any councils the authority to select His sacred books, nor does He expect men to receive His sacred books only because of councils or on the basis of councils. It takes no vote or sanction of a council to make the books of the Bible authoritative. Men were able to rightly discern which books were inspired before the existence of ecclesiastical councils and men can do so today. A council of men in 390 with no divine authority whatever, supposedly took upon itself the right to state which books were inspired, and Catholics argue, "We can accept the Bible only on the authority of the Catholic Church."
It cannot be proven that the Catholic Church is solely responsible for the gathering and selection of the New Testament books. In fact, it can be shown that the New Testament books were gathered into one volume and were in circulation long before the Catholic Church claims to have taken its action in 390 at the council of Hippo.
The New Testament books were in existence in their present form at the close of the apostolic age.
So, like I said, my Bible comes from the Holy Spirit, not the Catholic church.
“Dispensationalism and the rapture doctrine are: made-up baloney.”
Arguing about who has the truth, who are the heretics, etc is counterproductive to sharing Jesus. I know many who are full of ‘made-up baloney’ from all of the man-made ‘Christian’ religious systems. They are all man-made, and mostly exist today to control people.
Jesus did not come to start a religion. It is important to remember that his twelve chosen deciples, and virtually all of his other followers, those he taught/preached to, were Jews or Israelites. Even the woman at the well was an Israelite, though not of the tribe of Judah.
He challenged only the religious leaders (Pharisees etc). I believe they knew he was what he said he was, and they sought to kill him.
The Word of God was not given to us by the Roman Catholic Church, it was preserved and given to us by God, by His Holy Spirit. This was done for all of the Old Covenant Scriptures through the Jews. The New Covenant Scriptures were also preserved and given to us by that same God. The early church fathers did not know there was such a thing as a Roman Catholic Church - all in the first couple of centuries were just ‘Christians’.
I have seen first had the marvelous brotherhood between Christians who gather independent of what church connection they might claim. I saw it in Ireland, in Northern Ireland, during some of the troubles there. As many as 200 or so of us prayed/worshipped together every Monday evening in Rostrevor. Catholics and those who were not Catholic. It included priests and nuns, along with clergy from Church of Ireland, Presbyterian, Baptist. We were there as brothers and sisters in Christ, and no one was Protesting anything. If we could do that in Ireland in the late 70’s, why not now here on this forum?
Does it really matter that we will or won’t be ‘raptured’? Does it really matter that we know about ‘dispensationalism’ and ‘rapture’ because Darby taught it and Scofield made it popular through his ‘Notes’?
Darby’s teaching and Scofield’s Notes do not make these things so. Papal bull does not make a thing so. We err when we rely on what men say or teach.
Years ago, my father’s boss introduced him to his minister. My father made a comment about scripture and the minister took exception, saying ‘Do you know who I am? I am the man, when ministers in this town have a question about the Bible, whom they come to for answers.’ My father said, ‘Do you know who I am? I am the man, when I have a question about what the Bible says, asks the Holy Spirit, and he tells me.’
One final thought - God is in control. Not man, not any man, not any church - God is in control.
Jesus thought it important enough to include it in His word, and thought end time prophecy was important enough that He dedicated much of His Bible to that subject.
Warnings about the events which will happen before Christ returns has the desired effect of bringing many people to salvation. Bible prophecy also proves beyond doubt that God is in control and knows the future. So, much prophecy is included in His Word to show that He wants us to understand the things to come. Most of the events prophesied in Scripture have already come to pass, such as Israel becoming a nation again.
So yes, the Scripture which tells us that there is an event, commonly known as the Rapture, which will happen before the seven-year judgment of God on this earth, is extremely important. That's why God put it in the Bible.
Keep telling yourself that. It will sink in eventually.
Yes, it is time for you to stop posting garbage.
“Warnings about the events which will happen before Christ returns has the desired effect of bringing many people to salvation.”
Fire and brimstone preaching, scare the hell out of people, has resulted in many responses to ‘alter calls’ that have no substance.
As to the ‘rapture’, that is conjecture, and if Darby/Scofield had not taught/popularized it, you likely would not know that there was supposed to be one. Once a thing is conceived in the mind, it is a lot easier to conjecture it a reality by pulling pieces of Scripture together.
What is made very clear - have lamps trimmed and full of oil - we do not know when the Bridegroom comes. Not even things like ‘the budding of the fig tree’ are signs that allow those who would to put dates to future events.
Daniel’s vision - his 70 weeks (of years) is wrongly taught. There is no gap between the 69th and 70th week. The 69th week ended with Jesus’ baptism by John in the Jordan, and the 70th week, His earthly ministry, began at that moment. The 70th week was cut short, at 3 1/2 years, when He was crucified on the cross at Calvary. That death made and end to sacrifice and oblation (the need for it). His sacrifice was and is sufficient.
Just some food for thought...
Hmmm..."fire and brimstone preaching"? In all the years I've been studying endtime prophecy, I've never once heard any "fire and brimstone preaching" as it relates to Bible prophecy. But that is something of an antique accusation to make against those who teach others the truth of Scripture- kind of useless and quaint at this point in time, but a nice throwback to drag out of the basement when you need it, I guess.
"no substance"? You can't possibly be referring to the wealth of Scripture which talks about the event of the Rapture, can you?
If Christ returns with us, then we are obviously with him before He comes.
Many people have responded to "alter calls" and have come to accept Christ as Savior after hearing messages which included those verses. I'm not going to label that "no substance".
As to the ‘rapture’, that is conjecture, and if Darby/Scofield had not taught/popularized it, you likely would not know that there was supposed to be one. Once a thing is conceived in the mind, it is a lot easier to conjecture it a reality by pulling pieces of Scripture together.
Conjecture? Are you sure you want to stick with that?
20Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. 21For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. (2 Peter 1:20-21)
God says that He wrote prophecy. If you want to call His writing "conjecture", that's on you.
And as far as "Darby/Scofield taught it and popularized it", if the Scripture God gave us which tells us that there will be a Rapture of all who know Him as Savior isn't good enough for you, check out post 332 in this thread. Men of God were teaching the doctrine of the Rapture long before either Darby or Scofield came on the scene.
What is made very clear - have lamps trimmed and full of oil - we do not know when the Bridegroom comes. Not even things like ‘the budding of the fig tree’ are signs that allow those who would to put dates to future events.
The fig tree is one of the last trees to bud in the spring, so when it begins to get leaves people know that summer is right around the corner. There’ll be no more false starts, no more cold snaps. Summer is now certain and soon. Jesus used this analogy to tell people who’ll be on Earth at the time that when they see the things he described beginning in Matt. 24:15, they’ll know that His coming is really near.
Since we are living in the time when those signs are taking place, the parable of the fig tree is a very apt indicator that Christ gave that His return is near.
And as far as "we do not know when the Bridegroom comes", Scripture takes care of that as well:
29“Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 30 “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. (Mark 13:29,30)
So nobody knows the exact day and hour, but we will know when His return is at the door.
Daniel’s vision - his 70 weeks (of years) is wrongly taught. There is no gap between the 69th and 70th week. The 69th week ended with Jesus’ baptism by John in the Jordan, and the 70th week, His earthly ministry, began at that moment. The 70th week was cut short, at 3 1/2 years, when He was crucified on the cross at Calvary. That death made and end to sacrifice and oblation (the need for it). His sacrifice was and is sufficient.
From Watchman Bible Study:
The 70 Weeks of Daniel: The First 69 Weeks
There are four verses to the prophecy of Daniel's 70 weeks. These 70 weeks are the future of the nation of Israel as given to Daniel by Gabriel from God. I will go over each verse separately because of the detail each one holds and how that's connected to the overall study. I was amazed when I saw the depth and detail that was covered in just these four verses! This section will cover just the first three verses. Since the Daniel 9:27 is connected to current times, that will be separated and gone over later on this page.
Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks [H7620 a week (specifically of years)] are determined upon thy people [Daniel's people, national Israel] and upon thy holy city [Jerusalem], to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
This passage is split into two parts. The first identifies the subject of the passage, Israel. The second identifies the conditions that all must be met before the end of this prophesied time and is detailed more on the Daniel 9:24 definitions page, which shows the scope of this prophecy. What prompted this prophecy?
Daniel 9:1-3
In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans; In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:
Why was Israel in captivity? Because they did not obey God's command to let the ground lie fallow every seven years. (Sabbath for the land - Leviticus 25:1-9)
Jeremiah 29:10-14
For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, [Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy] and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place. For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
I think it's important to understand and recognize that it was Daniel's literal reading of the prophecy of Jeremiah that caused him pray asking God to reveal his nation's future and ultimately brought this prophecy. An Old Testament prophet took another prophet's prophecy literally... We should hold ourselves to the same standards, believing God means what He says and says what He means, taking Him at His Word.
God never left Israel in the dark about her future. Amos 3:7 (God hasn't left those who believe in Christ in the dark either, which is why you're reading these scriptures now. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11) He told Jeremiah exactly how long Israel would be in Babylonian captivity and why. Daniel recognized this time was almost up and so requested of God to know Israel's future from that point. That is what Daniel's 70 week prophecy gave the people of Israel, their future history until the end of time up to the millennium (Christ's reign on earth). There is a gap, but I'll get into that in detail coming up. For those with anti-gap leanings, please don't let that prevent you from reading further.
Once again, an important point to remember here is at the time of this prophecy, there was no church. This prophecy is for Israel and is clearly stated as such. Not only that, but it specifically identifies Jerusalem and clearly lays out a list of things that must be completed within this 70 weeks of years timeframe. These aren't all completed yet. This is a Jewish prophecy and it is not completed yet. That means that Israel is still part of God's plan in these times as evidenced by her amazing existence amongst the millions of enemies and surrounding hostile nations since 1948.
This next passage gives us the timing and length of the first 69 weeks of Daniel's prophecy:
Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [Meshiach Nagid] shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
7 + threescore (3 x 20 = 60) + 2 = 69
69 weeks (of years) = 483 years (360 day years) = 173,880 days
From: The commandment to restore and build Jerusalem was given by Artaxerxes Longimanus on March 16, 445 BC (Sir Robert Anderson: The Coming Prince adjusted days see below)
Nehemiah 2:1-8
Source: "The exact date of this event was given as being in the month of Nisan in the 20th year of Artaxerxes' reign. When the day of the month is not given in Jewish chronologies, then it can be assumed that the first day is meant. The 1st of Nisan, in the 20th year of King Artaxerxes of Babylon corresponds to March 16, 445 BC. Sixty-nine weeks, or 483 years later, the Messiah would come." >1 Chronicles 11:1,2 shows the differences between KingH4428, as in royalty, and Prince [Nagid], or rulerH5057, which is based in the idea of announcing.
From the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the triumphal entry is the span of this verse.
March 16, 445 BC + 173,880 days (360 day years and correcting for leap years) = April 6, 32 AD (Start of Christ's ministry- Luke 3:1-4: Tiberias was appointed in 14 AD, so the 15th year of his reign is 29 AD Christ's ministry was from then until the 4th Passover, which occurred in 32 AD) Chuck Missler |Biblical foundation for the years of the beginning and end of the 69 weeks.
If you can provide Scriptural proof of what you claim the prophecy of Daniel's 70th week is, I'd be thrilled to see it.
“I’d be thrilled to see it.”
I think your only thrill is in being ‘right’ in your own eyes. Some people are so steeped in their belief or unbelief that nothing sways, not even the leading and nurturing of the Spirit of God.
None of what you have posted to me is written in ‘Scriptural Stone’, in in the stone in your own mind, I think.
The book of Revelation, John’s ‘revelation of Jesus Christ’ writes what the Christians in the seven churches of Asia Minor understood - no mystery. Today theologians/preachers want to make it some complicated thing. No so. Most of what is in Revelation comes right out of Genesis. And those early Christians understood all of what John wrote to them.
I specifically asked you for Scripture to back up your assertion about the prophecy in Daniel. Wanting to see Scripture means I want to be "right in my own eyes"? You can't be serious.
I think your only thrill is in being ‘right’ in your own eyes. Some people are so steeped in their belief or unbelief that nothing sways, not even the leading and nurturing of the Spirit of God.
None of what you have posted to me is written in ‘Scriptural Stone’, in in the stone in your own mind, I think.
I backed up everything I wrote with Scripture. Nothing I posted was written in "Spiritual Stone"? So the actual Scripture is open for debate?
Your problem isn't with me. It's is with what God wrote that you don't like.
The book of Revelation, John’s ‘revelation of Jesus Christ’ writes what the Christians in the seven churches of Asia Minor understood - no mystery. Today theologians/preachers want to make it some complicated thing. No so. Most of what is in Revelation comes right out of Genesis. And those early Christians understood all of what John wrote to them.
LOL!! The Book of Revelation, which is the Book that details what will happen during the Tribulation, comes out of Genesis, which details what happened in the beginning?????
This just gets more and more bizarre. LOL!
If you celebrate the resurrection,
HAVE A HAPPY EASTER! :)
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