Skip to comments.The Collapse of Arab Civilization?
Posted on 02/13/2011 8:35:02 AM PST by kingattax
Five years ago, Lt. Col James G. Lacey published the article "The Impending Collapse of Arab Civilization" in The Naval Institute: Proceedings." He disputed the conclusions of two books which have particularly influenced recent foreign policy and grand strategy: The Crisis of Islam: Holy War and Unholy Terror, by Bernard Lewis, and The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order by Samuel P. Huntington.
In his article, he stated:
A more accurate understanding of events leads to the conclusion that Arab, not Muslim, civilization is in a state of collapse, and it just happens that most Arabs are Muslims. In this regard, the fall of the Western Roman Empire was a collapse of Western Europe and not a crisis of Christianity.
His thesis was that while Islam itself continues to grow and thrive around the world (and indeed, is continuing to make swift inroads into Western states), it has been specifically in the Arab world where one has seen the turmoil of civilization in decay.
(Excerpt) Read more at americanthinker.com ...
How does one collapse a root-cellar?
I suppose neglect causes it to slough in on itself - like a grave.
Yeah, I really don’t grasp the concept of a sudden collapse of Arab civilization. The Turks conquered them a long time ago, and then that Caliphate was taken out in the aftermath of WW I.
What passes for civilization in that part of the world is strong man rule, irrationality, a loony politically bent religion, and some western trappings when convenient.
To be quite honest, other than the fact that it can get worse (Iran, Hamas), there’s not a heck of a lot of loss to the world in the disappearance of said ‘culture’.
They were civilized? Who knew?
Many years ago (25? 30? more?) the NY Times magazine section ran a cover article on the peculiarities of “the arab mind” and, as I recall, at least implied what Lacey had concluded. Try as I might (including phoning the Times), I’ve been unable to track down that article. Anyone here know what I’m talking about, and if so, can you point me in the right direction?
Plus,they never created anything on their own.
There are two words in that headline that don’t belong together.
Well if you go back far enough you might find something, but it has been centuries.
Also, as soon as Iran announces that it has a working war head and a delivery system, I agree.
BTW, there are some excellent comments at source, the very best of which seems to be this one...
Posted by: Morton Doodslag
Feb 13, 02:10 AM
Islam is the crystallization of the brutal, primitive, rigid Arab "civilization." As such, the rise of so-called "radical Islam" does not represent the collapse of Arab civilization, but it's grotesque apotheosis. Arabs have inflicted their monstrous tribal "civilization" on countless superior civilizations over 14 centuries, and the Arabs have looted, defiled, and left desiccated wastelands in their wake. Byzantium, Egypt, Persia, Spain, Greece, and Hindu and Buddhist India are only a few magnificent civilizations which Arab Muslims have raped and left for dead. Few ever reclaimed themselves after the Arabs raped them, but Spain and Greece did successfully expel the rapists from their midst.
It is silly to think, however, that the inflamed cauldron of hatred we see spewing from the Arab world is new. It harkens back to the first days of the cancer of Islam. It descended on an unsuspecting world and raged across a huge arc, brutally murdering and terrorizing it's way to riches, conquest, and genocide. Islam appeared to flourish for many centuries as it parasitized the wealth of those it conquered until the loot was consumed. That initial frenzy of Islamic gluttony ended in the collapse of the Ottoman Empire nearly a century ago, and Arab "civilization", a.k.a. Islam was slated for the slag heap of history. But then oil was discovered and trillions flowed, unearned, into the bottomless maw of Islam -- the monster was revived again.
What we are witnessing is the inevitable result of allowing the Arab beast to survive it's well deserved annihilation. We allowed the slouching beast to feed on unprecedented wealth, and now intellectuals and politicians express wonder and dismay as Islam resumes its rape and pillaging. We are simply watching a very old conflagration begin to burn anew, but the flame is very old indeed.
They have a civilization?
Islam is just another sly distraction by the great deceiver.
First,I didn’t give you credit for a excellent post.Even
the credit for math was misplaced.They stole it from India.
No democracy ever existed that was democratic.. NONE..
Sharia Law IS democracy.. Mob Rule by an elite of mobsters..
The mobsters change and the name of the MOB changes.. but its still MOb Rule..
Thats WHY?... America is a Republic.. with 50 democracys..
States are Mob territory's.. as are countys and citys..
There is a case to be made about Algebra originating in the Arab world, but it is also worth noting that it was from a period before Islam formally rejected rational thought.
Exactly. If Arab “civilization” collapsed, who would notice? I guess they’d just look more like Somalia than they already do.
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So the statement that it wasn't about the fall of Christianity makes little sense, as Paganism, not Christianity was the religion of the Roman empire (Western Empire, as the author says) for almost its entire existence.
The fall of Rome was contemporanius with the widespread failure of Hellenic Paganism, and the gradual transition of the Empire towards Christianity.
Constantine's conversion and reign led directly to the founding of Constantanople, and the shift in the center of power to the east. Still, Constantine's adoption of Christianity didn't bring a complete end to Paganism, and his nephew who followed him as emperor, Julian (or Julian the Apostate if you prefer the Catholic label for him) attempted to revive the flagging faith.
So, maybe what's happening is that the moon-cult is dying, and Arab civilization along with it. I've been struck watching the Egyptian protests how few people seem to have any religious ferver. Prayer time comes and 14 people start doing the Moslem Calisthenics, but there are 20 people in background talking on cell phones and wandering around waiting for it to be over so they can get back to what they were doing.
Paganism was the official religion of Rome for the vast expanse of it's history. Towards the end people sort of lost interest in it and what started as a slow slipping away of a few towards Christianity accelerated into a majority over a few hundred years.
If average Egyptians can access twitter to organize a rebellion they can probably also access Wikipedia to read about the life of Mohammed.
I have often thought that Islam can not long survive as a religion once the simple facts about Mohammed's life is available, especially when the contrasting life of Jesus is also available.
There was a very old and revered saying in Rome that as long as the eternal flame, the Sacred Fire of Vesta, in the temple of Vesta, which pre-dated the Republic itself, burned, the city would live. Theodosius I. ordered it extinguished in 394 AD. Rome was sacked, for the first time in it's long history in 410 AD.
Arab Civilization and Islam are completely intertwined, neither can exist without the other, but I suspect that the slow dwindling of Islam will be the leading indicator.
Once Arab civilization falls, the rump-Islam in places like Indonesia and Malaysia will dry up and blow away, just as Paganism did after the fall of the Roman empire in 476 AD.
Who knew they were civilized. This headline would be true, about 1200 years ago.
Medieval is so.... medieval!!
Enuff already with the stones and the Torquemadas and the crusades and all the flying carpets and all that dark age crap!
Thanks for your post.
It longs to be re-posted:
Posted by: Morton Doodslag
Feb 13, 02:10 AM
Islam is the crystallization of the brutal, primitive, rigid Arab “civilization.” As such, the rise of so-called “radical Islam” does not represent the collapse of Arab civilization, but it’s grotesque apotheosis. Arabs have inflicted their monstrous tribal “civilization” on countless superior civilizations over 14 centuries, and the Arabs have looted, defiled, and left desiccated wastelands in their wake. Byzantium, Egypt, Persia, Spain, Greece, and Hindu and Buddhist India are only a few magnificent civilizations which Arab Muslims have raped and left for dead. Few ever reclaimed themselves after the Arabs raped them, but Spain and Greece did successfully expel the rapists from their midst.
It is silly to think, however, that the inflamed cauldron of hatred we see spewing from the Arab world is new. It harkens back to the first days of the cancer of Islam. It descended on an unsuspecting world and raged across a huge arc, brutally murdering and terrorizing it’s way to riches, conquest, and genocide. Islam appeared to flourish for many centuries as it parasitized the wealth of those it conquered until the loot was consumed. That initial frenzy of Islamic gluttony ended in the collapse of the Ottoman Empire nearly a century ago, and Arab “civilization”, a.k.a. Islam was slated for the slag heap of history. But then oil was discovered and trillions flowed, unearned, into the bottomless maw of Islam — the monster was revived again.
What we are witnessing is the inevitable result of allowing the Arab beast to survive it’s well deserved annihilation. We allowed the slouching beast to feed on unprecedented wealth, and now intellectuals and politicians express wonder and dismay as Islam resumes its rape and pillaging. We are simply watching a very old conflagration begin to burn anew, but the flame is very old indeed.
I’ve said it before. It isn’t the advance of technology that makes civilization.
Civilization is when you stop fighting over food.
So now that this global warming crisis has them fighting over food, civilization is doomed, for them.
Or it could be a simple case of a snake shedding it’s skin.
Assuming Obama's responses weren't deliberate...
Congrats to him for an excellent job on his part!
The author never got around to distinguishing what Arab civilization is, but this is essential background to what he’s talking about.
To start with, going back in time to before Islam, Arab culture was tribal and extended tribal, up to the point where the tribes met the city-states, where tribalism was less functional.
While taking tribalism into account, Islam attempted to transcend tribalism, while integrating it, as a more *efficient* system. In Mohammed’s time, he even tried to standardize and promulgate the best *technology* of the period. But this created a huge problem.
Mohammed should have said that “new technology is good”, but they are now stuck with archaic technology. But his selling point was that Islam was “civilized”, compared to tribal “barbarism”.
And this mood is also frozen in time. Arabs are raised with the idea that Islam’s ways, no matter how primitive, are more advanced and civilized than the “barbarian” infidels. Despite this being a glaringly false idea. Because compared to western society, it is they, the Muslims, who are the barbarians.
So what is Arab civilization? To start with, tribalism is falling apart. Even in Iraq, tribal leaders were smart enough to realize that a democratic government was just plain better.
And that’s the zinger. The selling point of democracy is *not* freedom and liberty. Those are just necessary side effects. What attracts people to democracy around the world is that it is *efficient*, compared to other systems.
And even the Arab street is figuring this out. Iraq’s first free election blew minds throughout the ME. Everybody there sees how Iraq is *functioning* with an elected government. Yes, it’s a fight, but Iraq is pointing towards the future, something the other Arab nations are not.
Which lights fires. So yes, indeed, Arab civilization may be collapsing. But waiting in the wings is something better. Something we may not recognize at first, but it’s there.
'And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?'
Obama is, without question, deliberate when it comes to Islam.
The Roman Empire made the grave error of granting citizenship to those who were not acting in the interest of Rome.
Sound familiar? History repeats itself, and often with disasterous consequences when ignored.
To heck with that advice, the music was way better.
It’s true, civilization results from food surplus. OF coure, decadence is a result of civilization, so... :’)
Not to nitpick or anything (hell yes I’m nitpicking), but Morton’s essay would be ever so slightly more persuasive if he or his editor learned the difference between “its” (the possessive) and “it’s” (the contraction of “it is”).
The term “Arab Civilization” is an oxymoron. Anything Arabic is not civilized. Anything civilized is not Arabic.
But keep in mind that it is a comment made to an American Thinker article and probably not reviewed by an editor.
And as we all know from experience, comments written and posted quickly without review by an editor almost always contain errors. Unfortunately, American Thinker's comment interface doesn't allow for an edit after submission (that's one of the really nice features of the London Telegraph).
Muslims want an empire, excuse me, Caliphate, back and wither it's Mogul, Arab, Persian, or Kurd, Muslims they'll eventually they'll keep wanting it until they get it and it is totally destroyed along with incredible numbers of Muslims. They worship a false god that takes joy in his followers standing knee deep in blood while piling up severed heads. It doesn't make much difference what you call the "civilization" that struggles along bearing the moon god on it's shoulders and periodically going into a frenzy of slaughter against others and themselves.
Yet here we are with a frikken radical sitting in the Oval Office, backing Islamists at every turn.
Wealth is a personal perception. Wasn't it surprising how many iPhones were in Tahrir Square? All the cars of the little people are large sedans. They dress like westerners and 60% of Egypt's population is 25 and younger.
Does anyone know how Soros might be involved in any of this African uprising?
We live in exciting times.
Sometimes I feel like I've stepped into an alternate universe
Arab “civilization” should have collapsed with the advent of tracked vehicles and international laws against the slave trade and brigandry.
There will be no Mahdi.
By the end times, temple sacrifice in Jerusalem will be restored.
Ergot, no Islam.
Likely Medina and Mecca will Have been utterly destroyed - which unambiguously disproves the Koran and the Hadith.
Per God’s promise to Hagar the Arabs will still be as big a pain in the ass as ever.
They did. Of course, seeing its decline in the present it a bit late. Arab civilization’s decline began with Mohammed and was completed by Al Ghazali, or rather by the universal embrace of Al Ghazali’s occasionalism by Sunni Islam.
If things are headed towards what you claim, you had better get busy. It looks like the very opposite is a reality.
Arab's were, at one time, the center of civilization. The works of Rome and Greece were preserved and studied. Medicine, such as it was, was better than in Europe. Scholarship was prized.
Later the attitude towards learning and books became “if they disagree with the Quran they are heresy, if they agree with the Quran they are superfluous - let them burn”
In recalling that past, the modern jihadist fights against the very wellspring of what made that past great.
Will Greer was sooo great in that role ! One of his best !
In short, there is NO Muslim civilization. It is only the claiming of the heritage the prior civilizations had as Islamic as it drives them down to the dust-bin of history.
Under the various uprising countries’ keywords, there are some topics (Libya, Egypt, Tunisia, more).