Posted on 01/16/2014 7:28:22 AM PST by sheikdetailfeather
Thanks bro.
Yes, I admit it.
I hate liberals.
No matter WHAT label they wear.
Good on you bro. You are about 10 years smarter than me.
Hmmm ...
Self Defense? - no
Wealth Redistribution? - no
Military Preparedness? - no
Energy Independence? - no
Hmmmm ... anybody else?
The lies are even deeper than most people know. One of the worst is that the GOP Members (on the whole) oppose Obamacare and want it repealed. They don’t, and the reason why discloses the biggest lie of all.
The Medicare Act of 1965 issued a guarantee of Federal payment for all “usual, customary, and reasonable” medical services, WITHOUT LIMIT. Using a standard static, socialist analysis they looked at what seniors had paid out of pocket, voluntarily, from 1956-1965 and figured the government would not be on the hook for a whole lot.
But that promise to pay without limit created a huge industry, bigger than the defense industry, that in an explosion of dynamic capitalist creativity discovered, invented, and marketed an immense array of useful, life-improving or even lifesaving products.
There are too many to list, so take one - the $60,000 pacemaker/defibrillator. In 1964, had they existed and had they been sold under a free market, very, very few seniors would have paid the $60,000 to get one. The necessary inventive and developmental work would never, never, have come about without the certainty of “free money” to purchase as many of them as could possibly be needed.
Now, whether or not these devices are good or bad, or are overused or underused, is not my point. On that issue, YMMV.
Without the socialist guarantee of money without limit, the capitalists would never have created them, just like Glastron would never offer aircraft carriers on the open market.
The socialists in Congress in 1965 knew, I believe, that Medicare would (somehow) smash capitalism. But, being socialists, they did not anticipate all the creations of the medical-industrial complex that would start to incur deficits as early as 1984.
Since the Great Compromise of 1986, Congress has paid for all this by borrowing or printing money. All of them, Republicans and Democrats alike, understand that they’ve created a monster and that their foundational promises of 1965 were lies, but none of them have a clue how to end it.
Obamacare is the answer for this generation of Congressthings. Everything that everyone knows is wrong with it is true, including that it cannot possibly work. But they don’t care about that. They needed to “do something”, and they did.
We cannot “go back” to 2008, because in 2008 the “system”, because of the promise to pay for anything capitalism could create, without limit and with OPM, was on a collision course with reality.
If you favor going back, which I do on most days, you have to go back to 1964 and redo Medicare with some kind of budget limit. And to do that, the “government hands off my Medicare” people are going to have to wise up.
Laz, reloading buddy of mine, I appreciate the support very much. As you are well aware, you are currently engaged in a battle with a woman that it uninterested in anything remotely related to admitting the farce that is her position.
She, like several others across FR are so tied in to the defense of the GOP and it’s destruction of all we hold dear that the only value in debating her is entertainment value.
Unfortunately it is people like this that “Occupy FR” and keep us arguing with each other. The example she set on last night’s thread is exactly why we spin our wheels and are in turn bum rushed by the Dems and GOP. And this is why we have to rid ourselves of the enemy within.
At this point in time, it makes a whole lot of difference. These are people who are determined to see us vote for the GOP candidate no matter how liberal yet again. Over the next several months, they will continue building dissent here and elsewhere. They will continue to attempt setting us against each other over small details in our personal political beliefs specifically to repeat the events of the 2012 primary and election season.
The entirety of this issue comes down to unity. the “UNI” party has figured this out. WE, the far right always win in the idea dept. We even have much of the population in agreeance with us on a number of subjects. Yet you hear the same thing when talking to people “I like X but they can’t win”. And that is because we lack the cohesive unity to make them believe we can.
Laz and everyone, we have to speak with one voice. We either are willing to repeat the ‘chicken out at the last min and vote for the GOP Lib” routine or we have to decide, each of us, YESTERDAY, that we aren’t.
Several of us have put our collective asses out there trying to get people on one page. And you’ve all see that we have gotten an unholy amount of hell for it. Why is that? It’s to pressure people into staying on the GOP plantation. The message is clear. Stray and be mocked for it.
And no, before someone thinks it, I don’t have a martyr/Massiah complex. The facts back it up. Read the post histories of those involved.
So it’s time to choose. The GOP is what it is. If people want that, they should do that. Or not.
“Right, because Obama has been SO good at keeping promises and enforcing existing law. So that focus is SO effective.
Again, your thesis is FAIL.”
Ok, Mr. Purity, then vote 3rd Party or don’t vote at all. Then prepare yourself (after sticking it to the rest of us conservative Republicans) for 4 years of Hillary, 4 years of socialist/communist domestic policies, a disaster in foreign policy decisions, a total disaster specifically in the Middle East and for Israel, and you can sit there smug as a bug as to how principled you are while allowing the country to be ruled by fascists. Man, talk about self destructive. Unfortunately it doesn’t seem to bother you that you will help to blow up the rest of us too. Bye bye America, hello 3rd world dump.
Not the discussion at hand. Please try to stay focused on the point.
The point is, show me how establishment Republicans are different than Democrats in any of the following arenas:
Once again, how I may or may not vote, or if I even vote at all, is not the topic I pinged you for. Let us assume for the sake of this conversation that I am a convicted felon and unable to vote whatsoever (something that I do not stipulate, but hypothesize for the sake of this argument).
Convince me that the establishment Republicans are somehow different than Democrats in all of the above important topics.
Pinging Norm for fun.
I woould offer the premise that she may actually be GOP-e in some way, or connected to them.
Or, she may be so insulated from the conservative mainstream in some manner, that she came to these conclusions without adequate analysis and exposure to other ideas.
I'm leaning to the first premise, based on her 'vault' over my valid points (with a subsequent personalization of the argument as to who I may or may not vote for.)
At any rate, it is not her that I make my case to; it is those other undecided people who might stumble across the thread. Also, don't forget, some people actually look my posts up. Not sure why, but they do.
Laz, don’t play with your food ;)
Her answer iss “You elected Obama”
If you whizz on your shoe, “You elected Obama”.
If you cure cancer, “You elected Obama”.
She has a one track mind and the train is named the Ole’ 97.
“I woould offer the premise that she may actually be GOP-e in some way, or connected to them.”
And you would be correct. See her freeper homepage. She’s GOP to the core.
Unless she erased it since I called her on it last night...Oh and a “Chicago area university” or something employee too. What are the odds?
“Not sure why, but they do. “
Hoping for a nude selfie methinks ;)
Stay with me here. People who are bad at debate will allow topics to change. Confusion and fallacies can creep in, esp. argumentum ad hominem.
All true. Except she doesn’t want to discuss or debate. She wants to repeat herself. She also wants to ignore anything you say.
Just click the post history for last night. I too tried a rational point. but quickly discovered she wasn’t interested. So she gets the mocking she deserves.
Then we shall have her on record doing exactly that, so that her credibility on this forum will be nonexistent.
“Convince me that the establishment Republicans are somehow different than Democrats in all of the above important topics.”
You are not the only one who gets to choose the topic of discussion, so we may end up having none at all. I already gave a point by point rebuttal to your post re some of the differences between Dems and Pubs. Go read it again. I don’t feel like reiterating that which I already said.
Now, you have choices. You either vote Pub the next two elections, whether those Pubs are pure enough for you or not, or you don’t vote at all or you vote 3rd Party. If you choose either of the latter two, you are basically guaranteeing that a socialist/commie/pinko/fascist Dem gets in office as Prez, or a bunch of them get in as Congressmen. There is one choice to stop that from happening, and it is to vote Pub, whether you have to hold your nose while doing so, or not. That’s it. That’s the choice. There is no other.
To do otherwise guarantees that our country will sink into a third world cesspool at an ever accelerated pace and we will be unable to do anything about it. And if you truly think there are no differences between the worst of Pubs and the best of Dems, then I or any other pragmatic realist can’t help you, because you are cast in concrete in your misbeliefs and no one will be able to appeal to any sense of rationality or logic where none exists. I see things as they are, not as how one might wish things to be.
You of course have the option of voting for the most conservative candidate you can find in the primaries, tea party candidates, whatever, to go up against some of the more liberal Pubs that are now holding office, and I would encourage everyone to do so, as the primaries are the appropriate place to try to change the status quo to something more to your liking. However, once again, if you do it outside of the Pub Party at this time in our country’s history, that is a wasted vote. We don’t have the luxury anymore of wasted votes without adding to the destruction of our way of life in America.
Example, Obama/Biden/Kerry believe that they can stop Iran from building nukes by talking them out of it. That is completely irrational, but they believe it (or they are lying to themselves and others). But they are cast in concrete in their leftist appeasement beliefs. Are you one of them, only from the right? Are you unable to make a realistic assessment of how things are, not how you would like them to be? Then you will help to lead this country to hell in a hand basket far quicker than even you would wish. That’s unfortunate, because as I have stated before, you will take me, and others who see things as they really are, down with you.
I suspect I have made myself as clear as possible. You have a choice to make in the next two elections. Please don’t make one you will come to regret, perhaps for a lifetime. Conservatives cannot be as illogical and irrational as Dems, and make our decisions based on emotion only or we are no better than those on the far left. Somewhere, somehow, logical rational thought must kick in if we are to survive as a country.
I completely obliterated the two I bothered to obliterate. In one case, you even had to ignore the VERY TITLE OF THE THREAD YOU ARE POSTING ON.
Your move.
Do try to stay within the same planetary system of the thread....
“Do try to stay within the same planetary system of the thread....”
You must mean Mars. Well, as you and Norm are having a two way conversation about what I have been trying to say, I will butt out and leave the two of you to your own devices. There is no point in my interjecting myself between the two of you. I will say this. If Dems get back in again and the two of you either did not vote, or voted 3rd party, then you will both have had a hand in turning our country into a fascist/socialist cesspool.
You know, when this website first started up, it was chock full of Republicans and most here spoke with one purpose in mind, defeating Dems. Mike Huckabee, then admired, and his band played at the Freeper Inaugural Ball. Now there are hardly any left here. The Party is now split in two, others want to dump it and go 3rd party, and thus we will continue to lose elections in the future, as divided we cannot stand. That and the demographics in the U.S. have changed greatly.
I can see how Empires fall; they are eaten alive from within. In 3 years we will see who was right here, me or you and Norm. This subject will be revisited then, if any of us is still around. For now, I bid you goodnight.
I make that observation by way of the fact that you remain unresponsive to those topics. You prefer, instead, to question who I intend to vote for in 2016 -- despite the fact there are no candidates selected to vote for!!
You got nothin'. I do appreciate your candor.
To this very important admission on your part:You know, when this website first started up, it was chock full of Republicans and most here spoke with one purpose in mind, defeating Dems. Mike Huckabee, then admired, and his band played at the Freeper Inaugural Ball. Now there are hardly any left here.
This lament is your clearest admission that you are an establishment Republican, and not a Conservative. You are absolutely correct, there used to be many establishment Republicans here. Hell, I was one. Then we got wise. See, this is a CONSERVATIVE forum, not a Republican one. To refer to the mission statement: "Free Republic is the premier online gathering place for independent, grass-roots conservatism on the web. We're working to roll back decades of governmental largesse, to root out political fraud and corruption, and to champion causes which further conservatism in America. And we always have fun doing it. Hoo-yah!"
So as you establishment Republicans continued to drift to the left, you lost us. To paraphrase Reagan: We didn't leave the Republican party, they left us.
Oh, and as an aside: I remember the Freeper Inaugural Ball. I was there. In fact, I was responsible for authoring and executing the centerpiece computer presentation that kicked it off. Perhaps you remember that presentation. Huckabee and Barr both congratulated me on my work.
At any rate, thank you for your exceedingly clear admission to your affiliation with establishment Republicans, no matter how liberal they become.
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