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UCLA Bake Sale Stirs Up Controversy
UCLA Daily Bruin ^ | 5/22/03 | Adam Foxman

Posted on 05/22/2003 11:29:01 PM PDT by rffan34

Several Bruin Republicans parodied affirmative action by selling Oreos, Twinkies and crackers for race-based prices on Bruin Walk on Wednesday, but they never meant it to end in chaos.

The "Affirmative Action Bake Sale, Reloaded," was a follow-up to a February sale put on by the same students, this time with emphasis on offensive stereotypes applied to minorities who oppose affirmative action.

Although the sale was obscured by a cement mixer for much of the morning, by early afternoon the table was surrounded by students – some of them approving, many of them angry.

The debate grew heated as Bruin Walk filled at lunchtime, and ended abruptly as an angry student grabbed boxes of Oreos and crackers, spilled them on the ground, and tore down the banner cursing what he called "white privilege."

"The debate turned into a debacle," said David Witzling, a third-year political science student who was at the sale.

The event was meant to be a parody that would incite discussion, but it was not meant to be offensive, said Jonathan Cayton, one of the Bruin Republicans who organized the sale.

But many people were offended.

Nashaua Neao, a third-year political science and African American studies student, found the affirmative action bake sale "blatantly offensive and ignorant" and said the comparison of people to Oreos and Twinkies perpetuates racism.

"I just think it's sad to know that they think of us as people who got in here just for our race," said Ana Fernandez, a third-year political science student.

"We got the same grades and the same SAT scores, and they think that because I'm Latina I got an easier break," Fernandez said.

However, some students appreciated the Bruin Republicans' attempt to catalyze debate.

"Regardless of whether you agree or disagree, these individuals should be applauded for debating these issues," said Paul Marian, a first-year history and political science student.

And some found it amusing.

"Frankly, I think it's cute," said Chris Bailey, a fourth-year political science student.

"The minute you can laugh at all these labels, it's all good," Bailey said.

Until most of the sale's organizers withdrew after the angry student's outburst, they thought it was going well.

"We had people who supported affirmative action and people who opposed it come up and engage us, but it was ruined by a person's choice to resort to vandalism to prove his point," Cayton said.

Cayton also said the Twinkies and Oreos were sold to expose the social stigmas that are often attached to minorities who oppose affirmative action. He said some minorities might not bring up the issue for fear of being labeled as a Twinkie, or an Oreo, both derogatory names for a non-white person who acts in a manner traditionally associated with whites.

The sale's organizers were furious at its violent interruption.

"It's unacceptable and ridiculous that people would almost get into a physical confrontation rather than an intellectual debate," said Jon English, a first-year political science student.

Many students also found the outburst inappropriate. Organizers were angry with the crowd for not condemning the man's violent behavior, but many saw it as the inevitable outcome of what they saw as the sale's inflammatory nature.

Neao saw the disruption of the sale as the natural effect of taking an offensive approach to a social issue.

"It just proves that you shouldn't have heated debates with offensive signs. ... The minute you start doing ignorant things, something like this happens," he said.

Many other students felt that the debate was important, but that the affirmative action bake sale was an inappropriate way to approach it.

"We want to (debate) this in a formal setting where we can be diplomatic about it," said Kristie Hernandez, a third-year comparative literature student.


TOPICS: Activism/Chapters; Breaking News; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Political Humor/Cartoons; US: California
KEYWORDS: affirmativeaction; bakesale; collegerepublicans
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1 posted on 05/22/2003 11:29:01 PM PDT by rffan34
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To: rffan34
Just another diversity day on the campus. Left wing OK, right wing, you die for daring to contradict.
2 posted on 05/22/2003 11:33:18 PM PDT by Ursus arctos horribilis ("It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!" Emiliano Zapata 1879-1919)
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To: rffan34
Great Story.

Here is an instant unemployment major/degree, "comparative literature"!

Comparative literature! Perfect for an affirmative action diversity queen.
3 posted on 05/22/2003 11:36:34 PM PDT by Grampa Dave (Time to visit this website and join up: http://www.georgewbush.com/)
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To: rffan34
The only reason the sale was so "offensive" to some of those whiny "I deserve something extra" folks was because as my mother used to say.. The truth hurts.
4 posted on 05/22/2003 11:36:41 PM PDT by bluefish
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To: rffan34
When a liberal commits an act of violence it is always justified through a equally tortured reasoning.
5 posted on 05/22/2003 11:37:51 PM PDT by fella
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To: Grampa Dave
Comparative literature! Perfect for an affirmative action diversity queen.

That degree will come in handy when she plagiarizes at her New York Times gig.

6 posted on 05/22/2003 11:39:11 PM PDT by martin_fierro (A v v n c v l v s M a x i m v s)
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To: rffan34
Twinkie and Oreo are derogatory terms?

There's so much I don't know about campus life.
7 posted on 05/22/2003 11:39:19 PM PDT by lainie
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To: rffan34
FM if they can't take a joke!
8 posted on 05/22/2003 11:42:29 PM PDT by sheik yerbouty
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To: rffan34
Liberals can't laugh at their lunacy, that is why it's so dangerous, they actually take it seriously.
9 posted on 05/22/2003 11:43:02 PM PDT by Russell Scott (Jesus will soon appear in persons.)
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To: martin_fierro
Bingo!

She will have a great educational background if she goes to work for the NY Slimes, LA Slimes, Washington Compost or ABCNNBCBS. She will be able to plagerize even better than Jayson Blair did.
10 posted on 05/22/2003 11:44:10 PM PDT by Grampa Dave (Time to visit this website and join up: http://www.georgewbush.com/)
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To: martin_fierro
That degree will come in handy when she plagiarizes at her New York Times gig.

You're assuming she's going to get a job.

11 posted on 05/22/2003 11:46:32 PM PDT by Timesink
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To: rffan34
I didn't see a single major mentioned that can actually enable one to earn a living. Good luck, losers.
12 posted on 05/22/2003 11:48:02 PM PDT by Hank Rearden (Dick Gephardt. Before he dicks you.)
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To: martin_fierro
*LOL*
13 posted on 05/22/2003 11:49:03 PM PDT by lainie
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To: rffan34
"We got the same grades and the same SAT scores, and they think that because I'm Latina I got an easier break," Fernandez said.

Why do I keep thinking of when John Belushi started sneezing during the hearing in Animal House?

14 posted on 05/22/2003 11:51:33 PM PDT by Richard Kimball
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To: Hank Rearden
>>I didn't see a single major mentioned that can actually enable one to earn a living.<<

I'd rather see these goofballs wasting money on useless majors than studying law, after which they might be capable of causing some real damage.
15 posted on 05/22/2003 11:54:11 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (This tagline has been banned.)
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To: rffan34
The debate grew heated as Bruin Walk filled at lunchtime, and ended abruptly as an angry student grabbed boxes of Oreos and crackers, spilled them on the ground, and tore down the banner cursing what he called "white privilege."

Where's the press release about how this guy is expected to be in intense care for a few more weeks?

16 posted on 05/23/2003 12:10:08 AM PDT by FreeRadical (GunDealers.com - Because Some People ARE BETTER than Others.)
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To: FreeRadical
I guess this disruptive violent individual won't be going to any "sensitivity" training as he would have if he were a conservative being as violent against a rally for lesbian sea gulls (reference to a song by hippy professor Beavis and Butthead movie).

(Organizers were angry with the crowd for not condemning the man's violent behavior, but many saw it as the inevitable outcome of what they saw as the sale's inflammatory nature.) Translation: this reporter thinks the outcome inevitable as this reporter considers that just bringing up the subject matter itself is inflammatory and should be shut down.
17 posted on 05/23/2003 12:26:58 AM PDT by winner3000
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To: lainie
Twinkie and Oreo are derogatory terms?

Only as used by the left. For example, Asian who voted Republican would be considered a twinkie (yellow on the outside white on the inside)...same principle for a black and Oreos.

Wonder if there are any snacks that have red filling and yellow and black outsides? Could use them to describe certain left-wing minority malcontents who have a predilection for Marx, Hillary, et al.

18 posted on 05/23/2003 12:27:47 AM PDT by Young Rhino (Does God Wear a Tinfoil Hat? Is he a member of the CFR and Trilateral Commission?)
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To: Young Rhino
There's always the watermelon (green on the outside but red on the inside, a term for "environmentalists" who are really crypto-commies who could care less about the environment and just use their slogans to attack capitalism)
19 posted on 05/23/2003 12:32:56 AM PDT by xm177e2 (Stalinists, Maoists, Ba'athists, Pacifists: Why are they always on the same side?)
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To: rffan34
"I just think it's sad to know that they think of us as people who got in here just for our race," said Ana Fernandez, a third-year political science student."

You are and you always will be.

Even if you could have gotten in without a race preference, the existence of those preferences means you'll never escape that stigma.

And "affirmative action at work" becomes the most popular phrase never to see print.
20 posted on 05/23/2003 12:35:47 AM PDT by dsc
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To: Jeff Chandler
"I'd rather see these goofballs wasting money on useless majors than studying law, after which they might be capable of causing some real damage."

Law school is postgrad. Don't breathe a sigh of relief yet.
21 posted on 05/23/2003 12:37:22 AM PDT by dsc
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To: rffan34
The first guy to dump the oreos and twinkies on the ground has lost the argument.
22 posted on 05/23/2003 12:47:57 AM PDT by Bonaparte
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To: dsc
Isn't it Rush that says that affirmative action is really liberals saying, you are not good enough to make it on your own without a little extra help?
23 posted on 05/23/2003 1:04:51 AM PDT by I still care
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To: rffan34
By the way, if it is really an affirmative action sale, the items should have been really desirable items, that everyone wants, there should not have been enough to go around, and minorities should have been allowed to buy more and for a cheaper price, while whites had to pay double the amount.

Now I would consider THAT analogous to real life. And the whites that couldn't afford it should have had to settle for twinkies and oreos.
24 posted on 05/23/2003 1:08:25 AM PDT by I still care
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To: xm177e2
I think you have a plot for a Spike Lee movie starring Ted Dansen and ex-girlfriend Whoopi Goldberg. The possibilities are endless with this one. Maybe Dansen can wear blackface again while doing his shave-the-whales pitch.
25 posted on 05/23/2003 1:10:01 AM PDT by Young Rhino (Does God Wear a Tinfoil Hat? Is he a member of the CFR and Trilateral Commission?)
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To: Young Rhino
any snacks that have red filling and yellow and black outsides? Could use them to describe certain left-wing minority malcontents

Besides the watermelon someone else suggested, Oreos have colored fillings seasonally; they may have red before Christmas. Pepperidge Farm, Trader Joe's, and others have light-colored (butter or shortbread) cookies topped with red jam.

But, the symbolism might be lost on those people.

26 posted on 05/23/2003 1:20:33 AM PDT by heleny
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To: rffan34
The Left. Such babies!

Whether it's breaking glass in Seattle, holding a Puke-in in San Francisco, or scattering twinkies in Las Angeles, the Left can be counted on to make a mess when it gets upset.

27 posted on 05/23/2003 1:24:13 AM PDT by Yardstick
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To: I still care
if it is really an affirmative action sale, the items should have been really desirable items, that everyone wants, there should not have been enough to go around, and minorities should have been allowed to buy more and for a cheaper price, while whites had to pay double the amount.

Their last bake sale a few months ago had different prices for cookies, depending on the customer's sex and perceived race, which was determined by an "Admissions officer."

28 posted on 05/23/2003 1:25:39 AM PDT by heleny
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http://www-acs.ucsd.edu/~calrev/archives/2002-2003/winter2003b/articles/article13.htm

Selling the Color of Skin
UCLA's bake sale demonstrates lunacy of affirmative action

By Dustin Frelich

There is a new race watch in America today, and the situation is even more tenuous on college campuses where admissions practices are under fire, the most well known of which being at the University of Michigan. But the University of California also has what can be said to be a quota system, fleshed out with a comparable point system, where having minority status can tip the balances in a favorable way.

With Supreme Court arguments planned for April 1 for Michigan's admissions processes, in which the Bush administration has even chimed in on, students at colleges nationwide are walking a fine line, not wanting to be on the receiving end of that dreaded epithet: racist. But not UCLA's Bruin Republicans.

They flew in the face of conventional wisdom, choosing to confront the politically correct instead of being held captive by its clutching grip, and held their very own "Affirmative Action Bake Sale." The idea behind the act was simple: demonstrate the absurdity of affirmative action by being absurd. The Bruin Republicans sold cookies to "Women of Color" for 25 cents, 50 cents to "Men of Color," $1 to white women, and, finally, $2 to white males and all Asian-Americans.

They also went one step further, labeling those staffing the bake sale table "The Man," "The White Oppressor," "The Self-Hating Hispanic Race Traitor," "Uncle Tom" and "Admissions Officer," whose job it was to "determine each customer's race, gender and general level of oppression," as said in their campus flyer for the event.

The idea was to create awareness about the true nature of the affirmative action process, where those who are given preferential treatment are done so for nothing other than the color of their skin (or gender, in this case). But this idea was lost on many, some of whom even went so far as to call the event a primer in race-baiting techniques.

"I am deeply saddened and disheartened at the activities of the UCLA Bruin Republicans. Unfortunately, this activity is consistent with the Republican Right's tactics to engage in race-based political discourse," said Art Torres, California Democratic Party chairman. "We have seen how Republicans have become emboldened by the comments of . . . Republican Party leaders promoting the absurdity that our nation would have been better off had the South won the Civil War. It is a shame Republican students at UCLA have chosen to mimic the extreme views of their Republican leaders."

Interpreting the comments of Sen. Trent Lott, of which Mr. Torres was partly speaking, to fit a specific agenda - namely, that all Republicans are racists or that Republicans wished "the South won the Civil War" - does not do justice to the debate, and it unveils for all the lazy intellectualism of Democrats in discussing the matter, relishing in name-calling and hoping the critical mind is absent.

"This event serves only to show that ignorance persists and that all political leaders must continue to work for equal opportunities for all Americans," said President Juan Carlos-Orellana of the Democratic Law Students Association. "Instead of reducing disparities in education and employment to mere dollars and cents, we call on all political leaders to join in an enlightened discussion on curing the societal ill of inequality in all forms."

Take note, you have just witnessed a classic logical fallacy called a straw man. Logic 101 teaches that disguising another's argument in packaging that is easier to defeat with arguments that have no merit in the original debate is a logical fallacy. Calling it "equality of opportunity" is a calculative maneuver on the opposition's part, and it is not done by accident. While "equality of opportunity" used to mean just that for much of American history, it has instead recently changed to mean equality of result. Whereas we used to want to make sure that all had the same opportunities, we now bend rules for the supposed disadvantaged in an attempt to have an equality of outcome, regardless of the effort of individual parties.

Take the University of Michigan's admissions policies. Did not all students applying to the school have their equality of opportunity in grade, junior and high school? And if they did not take full advantage of their opportunities, is it right to alter the admissions process to create an equality of result?

UCLA's bake sale perfectly showed the intellectual bankruptcy accompanying affirmative action programs. The outrage over the bake sale wasn't as such because of its policy, but instead because it brought the concept down to a level that is immensely easier to understand. And for that, those with affirmative action leanings are frantically conducting damage control, attempting to disguise the debate in fancy wrapping, hoping support they have long fostered will not disappear.


29 posted on 05/23/2003 1:40:25 AM PDT by heleny
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To: heleny
So when the student was offered the goods for less money, he got mad and started tearing things up and screaming about "white privilege"? So he's mad that we notice he has it easier?

Sometimes I think I'm living in Alice in Wonderland - because logic sure doesn't seem to enter into much here.
30 posted on 05/23/2003 1:48:25 AM PDT by I still care
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To: heleny
UCLA's bake sale perfectly showed the intellectual bankruptcy accompanying affirmative action programs.

It sure did! Those UCLA campus Republicans ought to get some sort of a medal for this because they nailed it. They captured the absurdity and the insulting nature of race-based admissions perfectly. A perfect object lesson.

And, naturally, all that the lefty students could come back with was the warmed-over lazy platitudes that we've come to expect from them. As always, the right applies its intellect to reality and presents its case sharply and with humor, but the leftist zombies are too dense to get it. They just keep oozing along without even registering that they've been cut to ribbons.

Mega Kudos to the UCLA college Republicans.

31 posted on 05/23/2003 2:21:40 AM PDT by Yardstick
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To: I still care
"Isn't it Rush that says that affirmative action is really liberals saying, you are not good enough to make it on your own without a little extra help?"

He does, but he wasn't the first.
32 posted on 05/23/2003 4:00:17 AM PDT by dsc
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To: Black Agnes; rmlew; cardinal4; LiteKeeper; Lizard_King; Sir_Ed; TLBSHOW; BigRedQuark; yendu bwam; ..
Leftism on Campus ping!

If you would like to be added to the Leftism on Campus ping list, please
notify me via FReep-mail.

Regards...
33 posted on 05/23/2003 4:12:13 AM PDT by Hobsonphile (Human nature can't be wished away by utopian dreams.)
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To: Yardstick
"Whether it's breaking glass in Seattle, holding a Puke-in in San Francisco, or scattering twinkies in Las Angeles, the Left can be counted on to make a mess when it gets upset."

Don't forget their all-time crowning achievement - the Masturbate for Peace event held in San Francisco. They always seem eager to shoot their "special" gun, but not so anxious to handle a real one.
34 posted on 05/23/2003 4:18:12 AM PDT by LanPB01
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To: lainie
Wasn't Twinkie some skinny English model back in the sixties?
35 posted on 05/23/2003 4:25:48 AM PDT by fifteendogs
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To: rffan34
Neao saw the disruption of the sale as the natural effect of taking an offensive approach to a social issue.

A veiled justification for violence. When liberals are offended they have the right to resort to "social unrest".

36 posted on 05/23/2003 4:41:26 AM PDT by raybbr
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To: rffan34
"crackers for race-based prices on Bruin Walk on Wednesday, but they never meant it to end in chaos."

Hey, I'm a cracker! Anyone can call me a cracker. Crackers are good for you.

37 posted on 05/23/2003 4:43:18 AM PDT by tuna_battle_slight_return
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To: Yardstick
It is amazing what happens when someone in denial gets caught looking in the mirror...
38 posted on 05/23/2003 4:55:38 AM PDT by cspackler (I don't think the really heavy stuff's comin' down for quite a while.)
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To: Timesink
that diploma will be good for rollin' doobies...when she's living in a van, down by the river!
39 posted on 05/23/2003 5:07:00 AM PDT by steve8714
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To: Richard Kimball
The real question asked should be, why in hell do hispanics get a twenty per cent head start?

Why?
40 posted on 05/23/2003 5:31:53 AM PDT by the gillman@blacklagoon.com
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To: rffan34
My class at UCLA Law School was about 10% black and 10% hispanic. At one point, an assistant to the Dean of Admissions told me that of that group, only one of the blacks and two of the hispanics would have been admitted on the same standards as the other 80% of the class (non-hispanic whites and asians). From my experiences in class and on law review, the difference in the ability of the minority students to do the work was marked, in all but three or four cases. Bar passage rates told a similar story.
41 posted on 05/23/2003 5:50:37 AM PDT by CatoRenasci (Ceterum Censeo [Gallia][Germania][Arabia] Esse Delendam --- Select One or More as needed)
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To: Young Rhino
Wonder if there are any snacks that have red filling and yellow and black outsides?

Do they still make raspberry Zingers?

42 posted on 05/23/2003 5:56:33 AM PDT by Overtaxed
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To: rffan34
Nashaua Neao, a third-year political science and African American studies student

What kind of degree is "African American Studies"?

43 posted on 05/23/2003 6:07:26 AM PDT by aomagrat (IYAOYAS)
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To: rffan34
"We want to (debate) this in a formal setting where we can be diplomatic about it," said Kristie Hernandez, a third-year comparative literature student.

AKA; .....in a formal setting where we (liberals) can control it.
44 posted on 05/23/2003 6:10:54 AM PDT by Teetop (Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first.)
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To: CatoRenasci
I taught at our local law school for awhile as an adjunct in the legal writing course for 1st years.

I'm afraid that the majority of the "affirmative action" students just were not up to standard. I taught one exception who was a smart, hard-working, motivated black guy. But in the five years that I taught there, he was the only one. I had probably 6-8 black students in my small class over that time -- their writing and analytical skills were just not up to par, and the gap was noticeable. There was one student who was actually sub-literate - couldn't spell, couldn't write a simple declarative English sentence, couldn't organize a paper. And she had a massive chip on her shoulder - I was failing her because she was black and I was white, yada yada yada. But there was no way even an affirmative-action administration could excuse her absolute inability to function in a law school. She disappeared after one semester.

Why the h@ll anybody admitted her is the mystery of the ages. There was no way she could take a degree, and all the experience was likely to do was reinforce her beliefs in the evil of the Man. And make life hard for the other black students by convincing people that affirmative action admits the totally incompetent (rather than just the somewhat below par, which was my general experience.)

45 posted on 05/23/2003 6:22:06 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (. . . there is nothing new under the sun.)
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To: fifteendogs
Wasn't Twinkie some skinny English model back in the sixties?

And "Ho Ho" was a top earner on 14th street.

46 posted on 05/23/2003 6:25:29 AM PDT by kaboom
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To: AnAmericanMother
I'm glad I was a TA back in grad school before the University of California had so many affirmative action admits. At least I saw almost no minority students in my history 'honors' sections. As a grad student, I did see a fair number of the "old style" black faculty and senior graduate students -- the ones admitted to college before about 1967. Those men and women, who had to be as good or better than the other students, were uniformly talented and hardworking. I remember being very friendly with several of them, because we had mutual interests and exhanged ideas -- we related as fellow scholars rather than considering race.

I used to have great hopes for the race relations and a variant of affirmative action I supported (i.e. identifying talented minorities and giving them any necessary remedial or background work in the community colleges until they could come up to the university meeting normal standards -- perhaps more expensive an approach because it would have meant subsidizing people for an extra year or two, but ensuring the integrity of the university's standards).

Then, I started seeing the affirmative action admits in collge, in law school, and affirmative action hires in the legal world. I have become very disillusioned, and don't believe any sort of real racial reconciliation is possible until special treatment issues (affirmative action, reparations, etc) are dead and buried many years hence.

47 posted on 05/23/2003 6:51:18 AM PDT by CatoRenasci (Ceterum Censeo [Gallia][Germania][Arabia] Esse Delendam --- Select One or More as needed)
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To: AnAmericanMother
I'm glad I was a TA back in grad school before the University of California had so many affirmative action admits. At least I saw almost no minority students in my history 'honors' sections. As a grad student, I did see a fair number of the "old style" black faculty and senior graduate students -- the ones admitted to college before about 1967. Those men and women, who had to be as good or better than the other students, were uniformly talented and hardworking. I remember being very friendly with several of them, because we had mutual interests and exhanged ideas -- we related as fellow scholars rather than considering race.

I used to have great hopes for the race relations and a variant of affirmative action I supported (i.e. identifying talented minorities and giving them any necessary remedial or background work in the community colleges until they could come up to the university meeting normal standards -- perhaps more expensive an approach because it would have meant subsidizing people for an extra year or two, but ensuring the integrity of the university's standards).

Then, I started seeing the affirmative action admits in collge, in law school, and affirmative action hires in the legal world. I have become very disillusioned, and don't believe any sort of real racial reconciliation is possible until special treatment issues (affirmative action, reparations, etc) are dead and buried many years hence.

48 posted on 05/23/2003 6:51:18 AM PDT by CatoRenasci (Ceterum Censeo [Gallia][Germania][Arabia] Esse Delendam --- Select One or More as needed)
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To: rffan34
Nashaua Neao, a third-year political science and African American studies student, found the affirmative action bake sale "blatantly offensive and ignorant" and said the comparison of people to Oreos and Twinkies perpetuates racism.

Wait a minute. The people running the bake sale did not originate that use of these words. They are ridiculing the use by blacks and asians to refer to others of their own race. If she (or he, I can't tell from the name) doesn't like it, let's see her defend Clarence Thomas or Ward Connerly next time they are called Oreos.

49 posted on 05/23/2003 7:07:18 AM PDT by knuthom
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To: CatoRenasci
I absolutely agree with your approach of bringing talented minorities up to standard. That gives students who may have been disadvantaged in primary and secondary school a fair chance, without trashing the uniform standard for all students at the college.

I think part of what we're seeing, though, has nothing to do with race and everything to do with the Baby Boom causing colleges to be overbuilt. With the reduced demand now that the rabbit has gone through the python (the Baby Boomlet of the offspring of the Boomers just didn't produce the same kind of numbers) colleges below the first rank are out touting for customers.

My daughter is a freshman in high school who scored very well on her PSAT and the Duke Talent Search/SAT. Every week the mail brings a new glossy color brochure from some college or other, inviting her to summer school, pre-college courses for credit, etc. The colleges are on a serious campaign to rope student prospects in early. (It won't work with my girl. She prefers to spend summers rock climbing, kayaking, and hiking the AT. She just got hired as an instructor for her high school's "Discovery" program - sort of Outward Bound for Everybody culminating in a five day backpack trip.)

50 posted on 05/23/2003 7:12:36 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (. . . there is nothing new under the sun.)
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