What's Really Behind the Episcopal Controversy (Vanity)

August 6, 2003 | Miss Marple

[Miss Marple]

With apologies for posting a vanity, but I wanted to put this theory up for serious discussion.

The gay movement in churches does, indeed force people out (along with other divisive liberal issues). I myself have left my life-long church, the Methodists, because of several doctrinal and political disagreements.

I have noticed that the gays are not lobbying in the Southern Baptists, nor in the Church of Christ, nor in the Assemblies of God. Now, one would on its surface think that it is because those churches are less susceptible to the message of "inclusiveness." That may be true, but there is another underlying reason as well, I think.

The mainline Protestant denominations, as well as the Roman Catholics, own a great deal of real estate and have fairly large bank accounts. The real estate (in Manhattan and Boston and other large cities across this nation) is owned by the denomination, not the individual congregation, and is worth hundreds of millions of dollars. An entire Episcopal congregation who wishes to split from the church and go independent must LEAVE the building, abandoning it to the gay-friendly people. This holds true for the Methodists as well, and I believe for the rest of the mainline denominations and the Roman Catholics.

On the other hand, most Southern Baptist congregations own their property individually. They can withdraw without losing the building, nor would they lose control of their bank accounts.

It seems to me that this is a concerted effort to not only shape public opinion but, more importantly, to control real estate and money. Money is used to sway political beliefs, push certain social issues, and shape public discourse.

If I wanted to control a lot of real estate and church bank accounts, so that the money could go to causes I believed in but were not supported by most of the congregants, I would choose to infiltrate the church with people whose presence would FORCE OUT those who have less radical views, and I would also be forcing them to leave the very expensive real estate, bank accounts, and endowments behind. I could then funnel money to groups like anti-war organizations without any objection.

It seems to me that there is a plan afoot to rob people who have donated their time and treasure (in some families' cases, for generations) to a congregation and church building, and secure the land and money for their own purposes.

In other words, this is about money as much as sex. Otherwise, why wouldn't these people simply start their OWN churches? I have not forgotten how once before we were distracted from the real evil by a story about sex.

They don't want to start their own churches, because they want the land, the buildings, and the money. I think this needs to be looked at with more attention to the financial side.

I also would like to point out that manay mainline churches also control large universities, and this also supports my theory that the issue is financial and political control, not simply sex.

Let us not forget that Satan comes as a thief in the night.

[Clint N. Suhks]

The liberals are clearly on the march in the historic Reformation churches. Any denominations in which church properties and funds and pensions are held by the denomination are a fat target for the liberals to seize.

Good points, what I don’t get is the disproportion (red state v. blue state) of conservatives primates in “my” church. How the heck did it get so lopsided?

I’m usually the first to deride my Baptist fundy friends whose ministers frequently cite the events leading to revelation as having taken place because the Bible says we cannot not know when they are happening. But if I were to go out on a limb here I honestly think this is the work of Satan and the beginning of the end of the world. How does that verse go in Isaiah, when right is wrong and wrong is right?

[wimpycat]

Was Pullen Memorial Baptist Church one of them? It's on Hillsborough St. in Raleigh next to the NCSU Chancellor's residence.

I went there one Sunday quite a few years ago, not knowing anything about the church except that it had "Baptist" in the name and I liked the Romanesque architecture, and came away quite perplexed. The preacher wore robes and a sash that had "Pax" written on it, and the sermon was based on the rich man and Lazarus, the message basically being a social commentary on the poor. (The church members were mostly upper middle class). Then they called me later in the week (I had filled out a card) and invited me to go on their spiritual obstacle course (a real obstacle course symbolizing something), and if I wanted to be baptized (I asked them where their baptismal pool was--it's in the basement), then I could write my own "ceremony". My husband (fiance at the time) said the service was "Catholic Lite", all the pomp and show with none of the substance.

A few years later I read where the congregation was going to vote on whether to perform a gay "union" ceremony. It was before this happened, or right around the time it happened that the church, as far as I know, voluntarily withdrew from the SBC. When it came time to vote on the gay wedding, the "ayes" had it, and I'm not surprised one bit. The pastor had often written liberal-leftie-touchy-feely-politically-correct diatribe editorials in the N & O.

[billbears]

I'm pretty sure it was either that one or the one down at the other end of Hillsborough. Forest Hills? Can't remember. And there was one this year in Concord that was kicked out as well

[George W. Bush]

Here in NC, I can think of at least two churches in recent memory that have been expelled from the association based on what was being taught from the pulpit concerning homosexuality

Despite some of the flaws we SBCers know of within the SBC, at least the fundaments of orthodox Christianity are upheld and our associations and Convention stand for the teachings of the Bible.

We need to watch out for liberal profs in seminaries and a certain tendency toward worldliness in Baptist schools but the SBC is in fairly good shape as far as its general witness to the world. I do have some concern for a creeping easy-believerism, perhaps due to megachurch/church growth movements but perhaps that is a recurring theme among many Christian groups.

We shouldn't be too smug just because we're holding the line on tradition and orthodoxy better than so many other Protestant groups have done. Their collapse is actually a sad thing. We'd be so much better off if they still upheld their witness from previous generations.

[billbears]

We need to watch out for liberal profs in seminaries and a certain tendency toward worldliness in Baptist schools but the SBC is in fairly good shape as far as its general witness to the world.

I agree with you there. What has happened over the past few decades at Meredith and Wake Forest comes to mind.

[George W. Bush]

Good points, what I don’t get is the disproportion (red state v. blue state) of conservatives primates in “my” church. How the heck did it get so lopsided?

I have a facile and typically annoying Baptist answer for you: politics are derived from religion. Religion is far more the driving force than merely secular political movements are. The root and seed of socialism and anti-Christian politics can be traced to apostate and apostasizing churches.

Well, I warned you that it's annoying. But I think it's true and that considerable evidence can be assembled for the idea. If Christ is the center of all history, then His churches are the great battlefields, both in the secular and the spiritual realms.

I’m usually the first to deride my Baptist fundy friends whose ministers frequently cite the events leading to revelation as having taken place because the Bible says we cannot not know when they are happening. But if I were to go out on a limb here I honestly think this is the work of Satan and the beginning of the end of the world. How does that verse go in Isaiah, when right is wrong and wrong is right?

Well, you certainly have many adequate warnings in scripture of wolves among the flock, false shepherds, that your brethren will be your greatest enemies, etc. We Baptists have done what we can to take that sound advice to heart. And the eras of Baptist growth are closely tied to when we follow this Biblical precept faithfully. We who are Calvinists as well will also note that these same periods of growth are tied to the periods where we turn again to Calvinist doctrine.

At any rate, the end of the world, whenever it shall be, will come in God's own time. It may be something of a comfort to review the problems of the early churches as described in the New Testament. You'll see that the current problems of orthodox Episcopalians are not unprecedented. In the final analysis, salvation and witness is a matter of individuals, not of churches or denominations. Again, we Baptists try to keep that in mind and act accordingly.

The problems conservative Episcopalians face currently have mostly to do with whether they will honor the biblical injunction to separate from those who will not tolerate the plain teachings of scripture and the entire testimony of 2000 years of orthodox Christian belief and practice.

I know it's not easy. But if schism comes to the Episcopal church, these are points that should be kept in mind to safeguard future conservative Episcopalian churches to safeguard them from apostate liberal leadership.

[George W. Bush]

It was before this happened, or right around the time it happened that the church, as far as I know, voluntarily withdrew from the SBC.

They left before they got the bad publicity from being kicked out of the association. If they were kicked out, it would be in the papers and people would generally be warned against considering attendance there. Given that you indicate that they bordered a college, publication of their expulsion would warn many parents who would keep their college kids from attending services there.

A fairly clever bunch of Bible-rejecting apostates, it seems.

[sc2_ct]

I think that the two areas where the must be fought at all costs are to prevent them from perverting the religious orders, and prevent them from raising or influencing children. If these two areas are covered, there is some hope that they can just gay themselves into extinction.

I think where we are really losing the battle is that we (society in a macro sense) are allowing these people to talk to, educate and otherwise influence our children. With their inability to reproduce, the only way they have to grow their ranks is through the perversion of our children's minds. This must be stopped at all costs.

As for taking a stand in the churches, this should be a self-evident need, both because it is the Word of God that says that this behavior is unacceptable, and also because we cannot allow them to attack one of the last remaining bastions of morality left to us and our children.

Several months ago I left the Catholic chruch (the Church as an organization, not the faith) due to irreconcilable differences in position over the war in Iraq and the local clergy's socialist agenda, however I am rejoining the Church (again, the organization) on Sunday, as now is a time where a stand must be made.

[EdReform]

"I think where we are really losing the battle is that we (society in a macro sense) are allowing these people to talk to, educate and otherwise influence our children. With their inability to reproduce, the only way they have to grow their ranks is through the perversion of our children's minds. This must be stopped at all costs."

You are right, and I agree that it must be stopped at all costs. However, as with the infiltration of the Church, the homosexual community has had a well planned and very well funded campaign to infiltrate the schools and indoctrinate children, and stopping them now will be difficult.

In order to stop the indoctrination, the kingpin must be shut down. And that would be Kevin Jenning's GLSEN.

The following threads will provide some additional documentation. I need to leave for a while and will check back later.

Assemblyman MOUNTJOY opposes promotion of homosexuality in public schools

Teaching Kindergarten Kids About 'Human Differences' and Homosexuality Isn't 'Easy' in Newton

Parent Alleges Harassment for Exposing 'Fistgate'

Fistgate to be Held Again on March 15

GLSEN (Gay and Lesbian Educational Network) Assault on Broward County Public Schools!!!

[KC Burke]

Your thoughts at #28 are well put together.

[The Grammarian]

On the other hand, there is that Trust Clause Governing the Use of Property In The United Methodist Church, isn't there?

[xzins]

You are very correct.

The Trust Clause, intended by Wesley for good, might just have proved to be the undoing of his movement.

[The Grammarian]

I'm not sure I follow. What part of the Trust Clause could prove the undoing of the Methodists?

[EdReform]

Ping

[mlmr]

As my daughter said when she read the thread:

Evil thrives when good people do nothing

[mlmr]

as a former radical feminist, I must say that I do agree with you, women are not called to lead the church body. I am in ministry but not in a leadership role. As a divorced woman I never understood the necessity of there being a man of only "one" wife. But over the years I have begun to understand the difference.

[foreverfree]

bump