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European DNA Found In 7-8,000 Year Old Skeleton In Florida (Windover)
TLC ^ | 8-14-2003 | blam

Posted on 08/14/2003 7:40:03 PM PDT by blam

Earlier I posted an article titled Bye, Bye Beringia (8,000 Year Old Site In Florida.

I just turned on The Learning Channel and caught about ten minutes of the ending of a program titled, 'Secrets Of The Bog People: Windover', it is about this 'Windover' site in Florida. A doctor Gregory from Cornell said that preliminary DNA samples taken from the brains of some of the people indicate they are European. They also showed a reconstructed face of one of the skulls.

I checked my TLC schedule and it indicates that another showing will be at 11:00PM CST tonight.

This is revolutionary...American prehistory is about to be re-written, IMO. I encourage all to watch the program


TOPICS: News/Current Events; US: Florida
KEYWORDS: acrossatlanticice; archaeology; brucebradley; clovis; dennisstanford; dna; economic; european; florida; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; history; noah; noahssons; preclovis; skeleton; solutreans; turass; vikings; windover
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1 posted on 08/14/2003 7:40:03 PM PDT by blam
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To: farmfriend; RightWhale
Ping.
2 posted on 08/14/2003 7:41:04 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam

Fascinating.

3 posted on 08/14/2003 7:42:58 PM PDT by xrp
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To: blam
All Right! Let's tell the Indians to go back where they came from. We got dibs! We got dibs!
4 posted on 08/14/2003 7:44:52 PM PDT by Richard Kimball
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To: Richard Kimball
All Right! Let's tell the Indians to go back where they came from. We got dibs! We got dibs!

Does that mean we can open up casinos in Florida?

5 posted on 08/14/2003 7:46:41 PM PDT by Mannaggia l'America
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To: blam
Cool! I visited that dig before they covered it up years ago. Was neat to watch the them work the site.
6 posted on 08/14/2003 7:54:45 PM PDT by FReepaholic (My other tag line is hilarious.)
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To: blam
A doctor Gregory from Cornell said that preliminary DNA samples taken from the brains of some of the people indicate they are European.

They're finding seven thousand plus year-old brain tissue? The bog must be an amazingly preservative environment.

7 posted on 08/14/2003 8:06:00 PM PDT by Riley
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To: Riley
Maybe we should shove Hillary's face in that bog.
8 posted on 08/14/2003 8:11:08 PM PDT by kcamtx
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To: Riley
"They're finding seven thousand plus year-old brain tissue? The bog must be an amazingly preservative environment."

Yup. They found 169 people and 90 had their brains still intact. Read the article I linked at the beginning of this one.

9 posted on 08/14/2003 8:11:31 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
Delightful bump.
10 posted on 08/14/2003 8:12:03 PM PDT by Spirited
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To: blam
And the skeleton was an expected democrat since it rose from the dead and attempted to vote Gore, but successfully voted Buchanan.
11 posted on 08/14/2003 8:15:12 PM PDT by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: blam
Appreciate the heads up, blam. I'll be watching.
12 posted on 08/14/2003 8:20:20 PM PDT by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote life support for others.)
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To: blam
They found 169 people and 90 had their brains still intact.

And, 293 dimpled chads . . .

13 posted on 08/14/2003 8:21:40 PM PDT by Petruchio (<===Looks Sexy in a flightsuit . . . Looks Silly in a french maid outfit)
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To: Mannaggia l'America
"Does that mean we can open up casinos in Florida?"

And sell cheap, tax-free smokes?

14 posted on 08/14/2003 8:23:41 PM PDT by AF68
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To: blam
Now we all know that since Carbon Dating and DNA are grossly inaccurate, (and couldn't be true 'cause that ain't mentioned in the Bible), this "person" actually lived in antediluvian times and came to be buried in Florida because he walked there from Europe before the Continents split apart (because of Noah's flood that kilt all the dinosaurs and ground sloths and sabre tooth tigers and what not).

God flew Spaceships
Invented the Vacation
Men and Women are the same sex
Your brain is not the boss
Yes that's right,
Everything you know, is wrong.

Apologies to Fireside Theatre.
15 posted on 08/14/2003 8:33:33 PM PDT by The Shootist
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To: blam
I hate to pass up Britt Hume, but this looks to be tres cool. Thanks, blam, I would have missed it entirely.
16 posted on 08/14/2003 8:36:08 PM PDT by gcruse (http://gcruse.blogspot.com/)
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To: blam
The questions that can be asked are endless!

The evolution theory nor the answers told in Sunday school address the "European" remains of 7-8,000 years ago.

17 posted on 08/14/2003 8:50:39 PM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: blam
Florida has the most colorful history of all the states: south american, carribean, yankee, confederate, cracker, cow hunter, spanish, french, british, seminole, russian, swedish, calusa, cherokee, minorcan.....and now the "bog people". Go figure
18 posted on 08/14/2003 9:00:52 PM PDT by stainlessbanner
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To: stainlessbanner

19 posted on 08/14/2003 9:09:52 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
Thanks for the heads up. That was a really neat show.

20 posted on 08/14/2003 10:48:42 PM PDT by KayEyeDoubleDee (const tag& thisTagWontChange)
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To: Mannaggia l'America
***Does that mean we can open up casinos in Florida?***

I demand reparations for my distant kin who were wiped out by invaders crossing the Bearing land bridge!
21 posted on 08/14/2003 10:51:33 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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To: blam
So, how did indians manage to get from Florida to Europe?
22 posted on 08/14/2003 11:34:12 PM PDT by Russian Sage
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To: blam
Just out of curiosity what in the world is "European DNA?" since that is not a scientific term or even one that I am remotely familiar with I thought that perhaps you could clear it up....perhaps it was DNA that indicated a caucasoid person? or was it a DNA that showed some particular strain unique to Mediterranean peoples? or exactly what?...
23 posted on 08/14/2003 11:42:28 PM PDT by jnarcus
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To: The Shootist
Apologies to Fireside Theatre.

ALL HAIL MARX AND LENNON!
24 posted on 08/15/2003 12:06:42 AM PDT by cartoonistx
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To: blam
Old People in Florida....That's news?

Actually, I really enjoyed watching this program. I was an Anthropology major way back when. Still fascinates me. Thank you for the heads up.
25 posted on 08/15/2003 1:30:37 AM PDT by marsh2
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To: blam; *Gods, Graves, Glyphs; carenot; CatoRenasci; ellery; Eva; freedom9; FreeLibertarian; ...
I didn't get everyone pinged in time for the show but let's keep a look out. It may be reshown.

Gods, Graves, Glyphs
List for articles regarding early civilizations , life of all forms, - dinosaurs - etc.

Let me know if you wish to be added or removed from this ping list.

26 posted on 08/15/2003 3:08:49 AM PDT by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
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To: blam
Talk about shaking things up!
27 posted on 08/15/2003 3:45:36 AM PDT by FreeLibertarian (You live and learn. Or you don't live long.)
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To: FreeLibertarian
The Americas have long been known to have been the subject of many migrations/invasions. I recall that members of the Canadian "Objiway" tribe were also decended from a European migration. It was probably not the same one as the Florida bog people.
28 posted on 08/15/2003 5:59:40 AM PDT by donmeaker (Bigamy is one wife too many. So is monogamy.)
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To: jnarcus
"Just out of curiosity what in the world is "European DNA?" since that is not a scientific term or even one that I am remotely familiar with I thought that perhaps you could clear it up....perhaps it was DNA that indicated a caucasoid person? or was it a DNA that showed some particular strain unique to Mediterranean peoples? or exactly what?..."

Dr Joseph Lorenzo on the program was not very specific, he used the words 'European DNA'. Not sure exactly what that means and that was the first I've heard about this.
From the earlier thread I posted, they do seem to be doing some work comparing these Florida folks to the Jomon people of Japan although, this was not mentioned on the program.

On a side note to this, the Jomon people are identified by their unique pottery which is called 'cord' pottery. 'Cord' pottery has been found in the Olmec sites in Mexico.

29 posted on 08/15/2003 7:03:10 AM PDT by blam
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To: The Shootist
Interesting. A caricature trying to do a caricature.
30 posted on 08/15/2003 7:06:31 AM PDT by razorbak
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To: blam
Thank you blam! WOW! We have seen the scientific establishment set on its ear. This will have an impact on the Kennewick case, I am certain. It will be interesting to see where else it leads.

A few days ago you made reference to "Humanizing" these remains in order to bring them into public consciousness. I agreed that putting a "face" on them would accomplish that. We now know that this has already been done and that it was done following the initial DNA findings in the '80s, which have since been refined. I thought the reconstruction looked "Asiatic", especially with the epicanthic fold detail in the eyes. This is not necessarily an incorrect "European" detail. I know because my completely Swede Paternal Grandmother had it. However, it would be incorrect to characterize a typical European face with this feature.

I found this documentary to be intellectually honest in all respects. The facial reconstruction was based on "best evidence", I thought, even though it contained the bias of the prevalent view of Beringia corridor migration. I think that a new "best evidence" reconstruction might be in order. It may not be PC, but I think one should go where the evidence leads, even if it contradicts my petty hopes and prejudices.

Are there any among us who agree? It would sure make a tourist spot out of the site. if nothing else.

31 posted on 08/15/2003 7:23:35 AM PDT by shamusotoole
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To: razorbak
Even a blind pig finds a turnip evey now and again.
32 posted on 08/15/2003 7:40:29 AM PDT by The Shootist
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To: shamusotoole
"Thank you blam! WOW! We have seen the scientific establishment set on its ear. This will have an impact on the Kennewick case, I am certain. It will be interesting to see where else it leads. "

Thanks to you, you are the one who originally brought my attention to this site.

In your communications with Bill Jones (author of the original article) I suggest that you tell him it is time to do an update to that article and include the new, additional information and pictures of the reconstructed face.

I think Glen Doran was wise to keep his 'work' below the radar (as he has) because they have a lot of data without the interference that Chatters had/has with Kennewick Man.(It's back in court, appeal)

I wonder when the 'main-stream' media will pick-up on this discovery. It is more astonishing than Kennewick Man and more thoroughly studied.
Jones could include, what seems to be supporting data for an European connection, by doing an update of the Cactus Hill(Pennsylvania) and Topper(South Carolina) sites in his next article.

33 posted on 08/15/2003 7:49:17 AM PDT by blam
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To: blam
You're right. A revolution is underway, as you have been implying for several years on FR.
34 posted on 08/15/2003 8:44:13 AM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Law of the Excluded Middle)
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To: blam
If recall correctly some of the DNA techniques can determine the time period between the seperation of two strains of DNA. That will provide some fascinating information.
35 posted on 08/15/2003 9:44:16 AM PDT by FreeLibertarian (You live and learn. Or you don't live long.)
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To: The Shootist
"Everything you know, is wrong."

Exactly what I was thinking, too.

Perhaps he got to Florida by boat, but his people suffered the unfortunate, but common fate of having their history erased/revised by the next group of Democrat-type-scholars.

36 posted on 08/15/2003 9:52:12 AM PDT by spoiler2
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To: FreeLibertarian
"If recall correctly some of the DNA techniques can determine the time period between the seperation of two strains of DNA. "

I'm anxious to see a DNA comparison of these folks and 'Spirit Cave Man.'

9,400 Year Old Spirit Cave Man Is The Oldest Mummy Ever Found In The Americas, Found In Nevada

Then there is another guy simply known as 'Stick Man' who's DNA doesn't seem to match anyone.

37 posted on 08/15/2003 11:06:27 AM PDT by blam
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To: FreeLibertarian

The nose on the Indian Head Nickel has always troubled me. It does not look 'Asian.'

38 posted on 08/15/2003 11:11:00 AM PDT by blam
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To: blam
The various tribes have many different facial features that indicate the effect of many different waves of migration.

I'm very curious if DNA analysis can determine if "European" DNA is the predecessor to some "American" DNA or if they both have a common root from a third source.

IMO mankind has been criss-crossing the Americas for 10s of thousands of years.
39 posted on 08/15/2003 11:33:28 AM PDT by FreeLibertarian (You live and learn. Or you don't live long.)
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To: FreeLibertarian
"I'm very curious if DNA analysis can determine if "European" DNA is the predecessor to some "American" DNA or if they both have a common root from a third source. "

James Chatters (Kennewick Man Archaeologist) in his book Ancient Encounters speculates that Kennewick Man was from a stock of humans that became Asian and migrated back and became the Europeans too. He thinks it was the Kennewick Man type that migrated all along the coast of North and South America, crossed across Panama and migrated up the East Coast Of The US. The Windover folks may be related to Kennewick Man (and others) that don't quite fit the 'land bridge' model. He thinks the 'land bridge' Asians came later. American Indian (as we know them today) skeletons older than 6,000 years have ever been found anywhere in the Americas.

40 posted on 08/15/2003 12:05:50 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
There are some DNA-based triangular ancestry diagrams for Caucasians, Hispanics, Africans and Native Americans on the following commercial site: Ancestry Testing

Don't know whether this site is reliable or not, but the concept is interesting.

41 posted on 08/15/2003 12:08:12 PM PDT by rustbucket
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To: blam
Happened upon the show last night and was fascinated. I never did buy into ancient man not having any nurturing qualities.
42 posted on 08/15/2003 12:16:40 PM PDT by mtbopfuyn
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To: rustbucket
Interesting site, thanks. I'll check it out in depth later.
43 posted on 08/15/2003 12:18:33 PM PDT by blam
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To: cartoonistx
ALL HAIL MARX AND LENNON!

Groucho and John respectively.

44 posted on 08/15/2003 3:11:20 PM PDT by Myrddin
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To: blam
Friday evening bump.
45 posted on 08/15/2003 3:47:11 PM PDT by blam
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To: plusones
Did you see this?
46 posted on 08/15/2003 6:32:25 PM PDT by blam
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Comment #47 Removed by Moderator

Comment #48 Removed by Moderator

Comment #49 Removed by Moderator

To: plusones
"Smells like a massacre. 170 people don't just end up in a bog."

Nah, the bodies were buried over a 1,300 year period.

Age At Death Of The Recovered Skeletons.

50 posted on 08/15/2003 6:59:51 PM PDT by blam
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