Posted on 08/15/2003 5:10:35 PM PDT by Destro
Of course all human institutions, religious and secular, are prone to error, evil, and even violence. Duh!
Excuse me, but I must beg to differ with you here. My faith teaches that Christ dies for our sins and that it was the will of God. If that is the case it's hardly right to say he was killed by the Jews. He happened to be Jewish himself, he was born a Jew and he died a Jew. The men involved were merely bending to God's will. If you remember, the night before he was taken he asked God to take away this bitter cup. It was not to be. Therefore, everyone played their parts exactly as God wished. Be mad at the particular priests, not an entire people.
I agree, McGavin999; except that it wasn't Jewish priests, it was Jewish politicians who also were priests, corrupt politicians, who were collaborating with their Roman masters.
Come on, people. Can't anyone read here??
Jesus was not killed by the Jewish people.
Still, lots of Christians have been taught that the Jews killed Jesus.
Dum dum dum and dumb enough to let your true feelings show. Thanks for the non-wisdom.
I don't think Exodus, or anyone here, said the Jews killed Christ. Exodus put it in quotes, implying he didn't endorse that view.
Well of course religions are not composed of saints. Neither are atheists...Of course all human institutions, religious and secular, are prone to error, evil, and even violence. Duh!
Duh! indeed.
That should be easy to understand.
Well of course religions are not composed of saints. Neither are atheists (which include Stalinists, as well as more peaceful Objectivists and libertarians).
I'm a libertarian, Commie Basher. I'm also a Christian.
Political belief doesn't determine religious belief. Believe it or not, there are conservative Republicans who don't believe in God, and communists who do believe in God.
Our Founding Fathers were libertarian, and I don't think anyone would ever accuse them of being atheists.
To: dennisw
Thank you, Commie Basher.
exodus - You think that Dr. Laura chose to be Jewish to increase her fan base?! Dr. Laura chose the Jewish religion while working in a Christian nation. She chose Judaism even though most Christians "know" that Jews killed Christ. That took moral courage. Her choice of Judism demonstrates that she uses neither political nor monetary considerations in her search for truth. She's an honorable lady.
As you say, Salman, some Christians "know" that Jews killed Christ, but they don't hold it against you personally.
If they would actually read the Bible, they would know that Jews were the Christians in the early years of the faith. Christianity was just a "cult" denomination of the Jewish faith, according to the Romans.
Corrupt politicians killed Jesus. The Jewish people, the "multitudes," loved Jesus. They cheered his entry into Jerusalem, and caused the politicians to fear loosing power to the upstart from Nazareth.
Salman - Nearly all the anti-Jewish stuff that I see comes from the non-Christian left, including sad to say, some Jews. The rest is from a few left over Ku Kluxers and the like. OK those guys claim to be Christians, but Christians in general don't think they are. It's forbidden in Jewish law to question the sincerity of a convert. Is it also forbidden to question the former sincerity of an ex-convert? According to some Orthodox authorities, she's still Jewish according to Jewish law. She can be an apostate, but can't go back to being a Gentile. Now I'm not sure I buy into that, but I submit it for your consideration as a possible position you might not have been aware of. I don't think she converted for political power or money, but her disappointment with the lack of touchy-feely-ness causes me to raise an eyebrow.
It was just a few years ago that the Pope finally officially declared that the Jews could no longer be blamed for Jesus's death. The belief in Jewish guilt by Christians is still widespread, but it is of course not "Politically Correct" to mention that belief in public.
As for the Ku Kluxers who "claim" to be Christian, as far as I'm concerned, if they claim to be a Christian they are a Christian. It's not my place to judge the sincerity of their belief.
In regard to Dr. Laura, I would never question that she is a Jew; she said she's a Jew, so she is a Jew. Here on this thread, I was defending her right to define her own belief in God. It's not our place to tell her what to believe.
As to Dr. Laura's "lack of touchy-feely" feedback from her audience, that was just carping on Dr. Laura's part. From my reading of the article it had nothing to do with her decision to stop active participation in the Jewish religion. I understood that she didn't feel fulfilled by her belief in the rightness of the Jewish faith, that she still had questions about God that weren't being answered, and that she was considering looking into the Christian religion to see if it has those answers.
I consider her very brave for conducting her search for truth in public this way. It might not be very smart business-wise, but it is without doubt completely honest.
As a rule, I avoid going where the water is warmer. I know how it got that way ;) (I also avoid bubbly water).
farmer18th - Theoretical religion is the arena of pastors and rabbis. Applied religion is the arena of the faithful. (Dr. Laura) probably saw the real thing in those letters
Theoretical religion is not the exclusive provence of religious leaders, farmer18th. I study the theoretical basis of religion on my own, and if I decide a point in a certain way, no "leader" is going to change my mind based upon his authority to proclaim the truth. He'd better be able to show me why his understanding is better than mine.
Also, applied religion is not exclusively the arena of the faithful (followers). If that teacher doesn't apply religion in his own life, he isn't worthy of his title.
dennisw, of course Dr. Laura will leave Judism, "go where the water is warmer," if she finds a different religion has more truth to offer. Anyone would, except those hypocrites who don't believe anyway, those who just mouth the correct words to fit in with their friends, or to gain money and power.
This is correct. Why the venom?
Why the venom?
I don't understand your question, Salman.
I'm well aware of all of the above. Even so, a disproportionately large number of librtarians are also atheists. It's partly due to the historic roots of the recent (past 30 years) libertarian movement, which was led or influenced by secular/atheistic Jews (e.g., Murray Rothbard, and the Objectivist influence of Rand, the Brandons, Piekoff), and less so by secular/atheistic Catholics (Jerome Tuccille). Karl Hess (a Protestant?) was also not much into religion.
Of course there are "Bible-believing Christian" libertarians, but they are relatively latecomers to modern libertarianism.
Our Founding Fathers were libertarian, and I don't think anyone would ever accuse them of being atheists.
Oh, you'd find disagreement on both scores. Not everyone would call them libertarians, and many of them were deists, which some contend was a cover for atheists. I've also heard Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and Tom Paine accused of atheism, although I'm not sure how accurately.
exodus - Our Founding Fathers were libertarian, and I don't think anyone would ever accuse them of being atheists.
All I've read about deists says that even if they weren't mainstream Christians, they certainly weren't atheists. They believed in God.
Ben Franklin called himself a Christian, but he noted that he had serious problems accepting that Jesus and God were the same person. I share his skepticism on that point, but I am a Christian just the same.
My requirement for the title "libertarian" is a belief in the Rights of Men, and in the Rule of Law. Our Founders qualify.
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