Conversion Journey update(Vanity)

[TheStickman]

After Mass today, the Deacon approached wife and I to tell us he had some *good news* regarding my wife's annulment paperwork. It seems her 1st marriage may be deemed invalid according to form. He then looks to me and tells me my annulment procedure (he and I have appointment this week to begin filling out the inital questionaire) will have to run the normal full course. No surprise there. However, he then tells us the parish priest wishes us to wait a full year (a year and a half or more actually) before attending RCIA classes. This means a 2 year wait for Confirmation into the Church. Does the priest take the time to tell us the reasons for this? Nope. The Deacon says something about keeping the classes from being disrupted (how in the world would our attendance be disruptive? We've already sat in on 2 classes) is the reason the parish priest wishes us to wait...but does the priest take any time to explain it all to us? Nope. I remain convinced I am being called to join the catholic Church of our Lord Jesus Christ. However, I am thouroughly confused about what in the world is going on here. The more I think about it, the angier and more confused I become. Having been around the block a time or 2 I find myself questioning if we are being *jerked around*. I would greatly appreciate any suggestions on how to procede. We appreciate your prayers and hope you will continue to remember us.

[NYer]

This means a 2 year wait for Confirmation into the Church. Does the priest take the time to tell us the reasons for this? Nope.

One of the guests on The Journey Home, last year, was a couple in a situation similar to yours. Both needed to have their first marriages annuled before they could be received into the church. It took a long time for them, as well. In the meantime, however, they attended daily mass, a habit they picked up during Lent ;-D

Be patient and prayerful.

[siunevada]

Almost three years ago a woman I work with asked me about the process for coming into the Catholic Church. I sent her to our parish priest.

I was more than willing when she asked me to be her sponsor and the RCIA team agreed. I thought it would be easy, she knew more about the Church than I did.

About two weeks into it I asked her, "What about your husband?" The question had never entered her mind. It turns out he is a non-practicing Catholic. But just enough of a Catholic to know what having their marriage blessed in the Church means. And he refuses to do it.

We have continued with the RCIA process. She has gone through the Rite of Election, she just hasn't been able to receive the sacraments of initiation.

We've watched for a second year as Easter came and went. This year she was able to attend the Vigil Mass. Last year, it was too much of a heartbreaker for her.

And we continue on. Her marital situation has not changed and their relationship is hitting a dead end, unfortunately. Her, I'm confident in. Him, I pray for every day.

Sometimes this thing is not easy and routine. We get called to witness in ways we would not prefer. That doesn't matter.

If I was in your situation, I would make an appointment to see your priest. Just lay your problems out on the table. There may not be a resolution pleasing to you but maybe it will lead to better understanding by everyone.

[Maximilian]

Tantumergo already replied with some very useful observations. Let me just also point out that your situation is difficult because you are taking 2 different issues which are both inherently complicated, and combining them together, multiplying the complications.

On its own, the annulment issue is already the issue that occupies the vast majority of church canon law time. These can be very complicated procedures, even for people born Catholic. You may have heard of the book written by the former wife of one of the Kennedy's, Sheila Rauch Kennedy was her name I believe, and another book called "The Annulment Crisis." The pope has recently spoken out strongly to the Roman Curia, the "court of appeal" you might say, about the need for them to tighten their criteria for granting annulments. So this is a huge issue throughout the Church, on the invidual level for those seeking annulments, and on the national level because of the geometric expansion in the number of annulments granted.

Then you have the conversion process, which is normally a major issue all by itself, even when you are not seeking two annulments. There is the question of the RCIA process which is extremely controversial due to the fact that most RCIA programs are little more than mis-education in heresy. And there is the broader issue of one's conversion and one's religious experience that has led you to this point.

So taking all the complications from both of these issues and multiplying them together is going to create a situation that cannot be resolved overnight. Ultimately, however, it boils down to the question, "Are you living in sin?" Both you and your wife have former marriages and living former marriage partners. Jesus says very strongly and clearly that "A man who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and the same for a woman." The issue that must be resolved is, "What does it mean to become a Catholic if you are living in adultery and intend to continue living in adultery?"

It's not impossible that this could be resolved, but it's apparent why it must be treated as an extremely serious situation, and why it cannot be dismissed lightly, and why these issues are going to strike to the heart of your conversion experience, one way or another.

[sinkspur]

The Church recognises the validity of marriages among pagans, because although they are not Sacramental marriages, they are covenantal marriages in the eyes of God according to the Natural Law.

Yes, but a marriage between two pagans, in which one of them decides to become Catholic, and the other does not, can be dissolved via the Pauline Privilege. And that is a routine approval given by the local bishop. (Canon 1143)

If a marriage is valid outside the Catholic Church then why the big problem with Catholics marrying in non-Catholic churches?

Because Catholics are bound by the form of marriage, which is the marriage must be contracted in front of two witnesses and an official representative of the Church (bishop, priest, or deacon, or a Protestant minister, if a dispensation has been granted by the bishop).

Catholics who marry outside this form have not contracted a valid marriage. The "annulment" sought here is a simple declaration by the Catholic party and it is signed by the local bishop.

[Salvation]

Have you gone in to talk to the priest or deacon about these thoughts and feelings?

Would recommend it.

And you and your wife will be in my prayers.

PS. For whatever it's worth, sometimes annulments, etc. can take up to a year. I just think the priest is trying to protect you so that you don't go through the RCIA classes and then, due to the lack of an annulment, cannot go ahead with the Sacraments of Initiation next Easter.

[Salvation]

Ping!

[Salvation]

**I have an appointment with the Deacon (it was scheduled before he dropped this *good news* bomb on us today) Tuesday. I've also written him today via email about our concerns and so has my wife.**

I see you have already taken care of what I suggested! Bravo for you!

[Salvation]

Has she already received the Sacraments of Initiation?

Trust in the Lord and pray!

Her husband has an issue of some kind, and I'm sure it could be resolved in a "Welcome Back, Catholics" class.

The resource we use for our class is "Catholics Can Come Home Again and I now understand they also have a website.

God bless you for standing by your friend!

[topcat54]

it is Divine Law and it is immutable.

So immutable that the RCC has to have these phoney annulment procedures. "What God has joined together ..." Oh, wait a minute, God didn't REALLY join these two together, says man. We found a loophole. Now we can let this philandering ex-husband remarry in the RC church. Just declare ex-cathedra that his first marriage never happened.

Ain't it all convenient when you know what strings to pull?

[sinkspur]

Has she already received the Sacraments of Initiation?

Unfortunately, she can't. She's not in a valid marriage.

We run across this situation quite a bit among Hispanics. The men know that a marriage in front of a priest is forever, and some of them just won't make that kind of commitment.

[TheStickman]

Thanks for sharing your insights. I appreciate the time you and others have given in posting in this thread.

I guess what's hardest for me to understand is this: how can the parish priest determine how long we are going to have to wait for our annulment when I've yet to put pen to paper on any of this? We've yet to even have a single conversation with the parish priest, either individually or as a couple.

'Tis puzzling to be sure.

[sinkspur]

Ain't it all convenient when you know what strings to pull?

Some people may abuse the annulment process, but, given that an annulment can take up to two years to secure, and that it is not a simple process, most of those who seek annulments are sincerely seeking to get their lives straight before God.

[sinkspur]

how can the parish priest determine how long we are going to have to wait for our annulment when I've yet to put pen to paper on any of this?

There are mandatory time frames built into the process. The priest will know the minimum time, but he will not know the maximum. Most annulments can take up to two years; some take longer, especially if dealing with multiple marriages.

He's not trying to keep you out of the Church; he likely just wants to avoid inevitable disappointment if you think you're going to be admitted next Easter, when there's no way that will happen.

Talk to him.

[siunevada]

Unfortunately, she can't. She's not in a valid marriage.

That's the problem in a nutshell. It wouldn't be fair to her to put her in a situation that is an occasion of sin.

I keep telling her she is in better shape than me because she will have a Baptism of desire if anything happens to her. I'm an old sinner with a lot to answer for.

I would love for her husband to be interested in coming back to the Church, but he's not. No class is going to do it.

We've been through all the human attempts at solution of their marital situation. Only the Holy Spirit changes hearts, that's the ultimate truth and that's where we are at.

[sinkspur]

If I were you, I would tell her to seek out a priest, and explain her situation.

She desires to regularize her marriage, and her husband will not consent to it. In addition, she wishes to receive baptism (if she's not baptized) or make her profession of Faith, and receive the Eucharist.

Some of these things can be worked out in the internal forum.

Whatever, continue to encourage her. She is seeking God, and the Church will do what it can, where it can.

[dansangel]

Don't forget that it might be satan whispering in your ear. Anything to weaken your resolve will give him great satisfaction. God be with you.

Of course that is precisely what is going on.

.45MAN and I went through a very complicated and, at times, thoroughly discouraging and frustrating annulment process that took nearly 5 years. I *know*, looking back on it, that satan was in the mix, doing his best to prevent me from coming back to the Church after a twenty-five year absence.

I'll spare you the details, but I'm here to say that it was very much worth the wait. Please hang in there and don't let the trials and tribulations (mostly man-made) that you face discourage you. Your rewards will be many.

Dear ((((((Salvation)))))) - thank you so much for the ping.

[visualops]

Thanks for your responses.

I guess the problem was we were told certain things and started down a path, only to have the rug jerked out from under, as it were. If someone had just come out and said hey, this can take months or even years, so we recommend waiting for the RCIA until at least the annulment process is well underway, we would have understood.
It just seems there's been a certain amount of misinformation from the very people we are relying on to guide us. It's not very reassuring to say the least. Add to that the priest's seeming reluctance to offer anything more than the briefest of advice, and you see where we are with this.
I understand it's serious matters, but it isn't complicated if you know what steps to take. I just don't like this feeling that this is all on a "need to know" basis, and someone thinks we don't need to know.
I have filled out the initial papers (which the priest was to look over before we sent them off to tribunal), only for the Deacon to come back and say well, you may only need the short quick form, but then asks about my conversion which I'd already explained...which in fact he said may be the only grounds for annulment I'd need since conversion was a condition of marriage. I can climb any obstacle, I just need to know where they are.

[TheStickman]

Thanks for sharing your experience.

We WILL hang in there. If it takes 2 or 3 or 10 years then that's how long it takes. The upsetting part of this is the lack of info or conflicting info we're receiving from the parish priest thru the Deacon. Hopefully some of this will be cleared up when I meet with the Deacon tomorrow afternoon.

The rewards from attending Mass everyday are too numerous to mention already. The portions of the afternoon I spend in the Chapel praying have also been wonderful.

Peace be with you:)

[visualops]

I'll spare you the details

Please don't! LOL

Seriously, if you could give some indication of what it was that made it take so long...it would be a big help. Of course I understand there may be some things not for public consumption.

[sinkspur]

I just don't like this feeling that this is all on a "need to know" basis, and someone thinks we don't need to know.

It's not on a "need to know" basis, and the deacon and priest were completely off base if they left you with that impression.

None of the procedures and processes are secret, and somebody should have told you up front that this was an 18-24 month time frame (for Stickman; your "annulment" can be done in a day.)

If you'd like to learn more about the Faith, why not ask if you can just attend the RCIA anyway? You'll have to go through it again, but at least you'll know more, and can ask more penetrating questions and add some insight for others in the sessions.

I know this is frustrating, but, not many who are in your shoes have the benefit of sharing your frustration with others in a forum like this.

Grace comes into our lives in all kinds of ways. This is one of them.