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Catholic priests demand the right to marry
SMH ^ | 26 January 2005 | Linda Morris

Posted on 01/25/2005 5:56:05 AM PST by Catholic54321

Australian Catholic priests are urging Rome to overturn its ban on married clergy as the church grapples with a chronic shortage of ordained priests.

The unprecedented submission to the Vatican directly challenges the obligation of celibacy, a prerequisite of the Catholic priesthood, and has reignited a debate within the church that has been simmering since the Middle Ages.

The National Council of Priests wrote to the Vatican's Synod of Bishops last month arguing that marriage should be no bar to ordination and asking the church to consider readmitting priests who had left the clergy to marry.

It also asked the church to extend the right held by thousands of married clergy who converted to Catholicism from other faiths to practise as priests to other married men.

About half of Australia's 1649 Catholic clergy, including 42 bishops and three cardinals, are members of the National Council of Priests, including the Archbishop of Sydney, Cardinal George Pell

The council's chairman, Father Hal Ranger, said the changes were necessary to ensure Catholics had continued access to the sacraments. Vast distances and cultural or lifestyle factors, combined with decreasing priest numbers, meant the opportunity for some Catholics to celebrate the eucharist was "drastically limited". It was important to take decisive action so that Sunday mass and celebration of the sacraments was reasonably available.

"We request that ... the Synod Fathers examine honestly the appropriateness of insisting upon a priesthood that is, with very few exceptions, obliged to be celibate. Priesthood is a gift, celibacy is a gift: they are not the same gift," said the statement, which was written in response to a discussion paper on the place of the Eucharist in Catholic life.

Father Ranger said Australian priests were loyal to Catholic traditions and adverse to liturgical abuse but "we are scandalised when the gnat of abuse is so carefully strained out while the camel of dying communities is being swallowed".

Last month the Sydney Catholic Diocese announced plans to "twin" more than 50 local parishes to overcome falling priest numbers. It came as a survey of more than 300 Australian priests presented to Catholic bishops showed little support for mandatory celibacy and linked celibacy with thoughts of resignation.

A Melbourne priest and statistician has warned that the Catholic Church in NSW faces a dire shortage of priests in the next 20 years as its clergy ages, retires or dies. Father Eric Hodgens predicted the church would have fewer than one-sixth the number needed to conduct Sunday Mass.

Celibacy was the single biggest obstacle to the priesthood, he said, but while admitting married men would make a difference to recruitment numbers it was not the only answer. "The package at the moment is male, full-time, life-long and celibate and I would think that whole package is difficult for most people to embrace," Father Hodgens said.

Cardinal Pell yesterday declined to say where he stood on the issue of celibacy, only that he agreed with much of what had been written by the council, but not all.

"Reflections on the lineamenta [discussion paper] are offered by the executive of the NCP as 'indications of the thinking of many Australian Catholic priests'.

"As a member of the NCP, I would agree with much of what they have written, but not all of it. There are many rooms in the Father's house," he said.


TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; Religion & Culture; Worship
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1 posted on 01/25/2005 5:56:05 AM PST by Catholic54321
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To: Catholic54321

Wrong answer! Liberal dioceses have the least vocations; orthodox dioceses have the most.

But they never suggest fidelity to the Church's teaching as a solution, do they?


2 posted on 01/25/2005 6:10:33 AM PST by B Knotts
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To: Catholic54321

The beat goes on.........


3 posted on 01/25/2005 6:12:20 AM PST by sinkspur ("Preach the gospel. If necessary, use words.")
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To: B Knotts
Even "orthodox dioceses" are not recruiting sufficient numbers of men to replace those who leave, retire, and die.

The lack of a condemnation of this letter from Cardinal Pell is very telling.

4 posted on 01/25/2005 6:15:06 AM PST by sinkspur ("Preach the gospel. If necessary, use words.")
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To: sinkspur

Yawn... You might think the traddies have one issue, but you are really a one-issue pony, aren't you?

Yawn...


5 posted on 01/25/2005 6:22:04 AM PST by Mershon
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To: Catholic54321

This is something that really makes no sense. Priests who are not married are giving marital and other family oriented advice to those that are? Yet, in other christian religions their church leaders do marry but still serve God as members of their community.

Just a question but you think that marriage might cut down on the bullsh*t that goes on in the church?


6 posted on 01/25/2005 6:26:58 AM PST by misterrob
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To: Mershon

Yes. I am concerned about the dwindling number of priests. You should be, too.


7 posted on 01/25/2005 6:31:18 AM PST by sinkspur ("Preach the gospel. If necessary, use words.")
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To: sinkspur

This is something that was caused by the liberals and modernists of the past 40 years. They mentored no one because they were too busy fulfilling their sordid sexual desires with the boys they should have been mentoring. I have been "concerned about this" for as long as I have been awakened to what has been going on. The liberals/modernists caused this crisis in the Church, and NOW they will have no one to take their places for a generation or so.

There is no shortage of vocations to the priesthood, just as things stand with the celibacy discipline right now. In fact, two college-age and college graduate friends of mine left two and three weeks ago to begin seminary training because they heard God's call and responded.

The liberals/modernists/sodomite priests and bishops made their beds (literally) and now they will garner the fruits of their efforts. God always respects man's free will and his infidelity.


8 posted on 01/25/2005 6:47:15 AM PST by Mershon
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To: misterrob

"This is something that really makes no sense. Priests who are not married are giving marital and other family oriented advice to those that are?"

Jesus Christ was celibate. John Paul II is celibate. They have written the most beautiful and highest level of spirituality and practicality on the sacrament of Matrimony of any men ever. Have you ever read what the Church teaches regarding this sacrament?

And "No," allowing men to marry will not cut down on the feces going on because heterosexual men are not attracted to boys. Certainly you understand this...


9 posted on 01/25/2005 6:49:30 AM PST by Mershon
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To: Mershon
The liberals/modernists/sodomite priests and bishops made their beds (literally) and now they will garner the fruits of their efforts. God always respects man's free will and his infidelity.

Nice how you conflated sexual abuse with doctrinal views you don't agree with. I guess the gay priesthood didn't exist before Vatican II.

10 posted on 01/25/2005 6:58:16 AM PST by kezekiel
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To: Mershon
There is no shortage of vocations to the priesthood, just as things stand with the celibacy discipline right now.

OK. Keep telling yourself that.

11 posted on 01/25/2005 7:00:00 AM PST by sinkspur ("Preach the gospel. If necessary, use words.")
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To: sinkspur

So with all of your altar girls, what are you and your priests doing to foster vocations and a Catholic spirituality in young men? Anything? I certainly do not mean youth group or lifeteen.

What specific programs do you have for the young men and boys?

Let me guess...

Poor babies. I feel really sorry for the modernists who have gained NO ADHERENTS from the younger generation. Poor little babies...

Whatever you do, do not EVER address the content of the message. Just look for ways to pick one point apart which you determine to be the weakest. Don't ever address the real issues. "We have a priest shortage. We are overworked. Woe is me."

Boo hoo hoo... Go cry in your mother's milk. What a bunch of crybaby whimps.


12 posted on 01/25/2005 7:07:05 AM PST by Mershon
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To: Mershon
We're doing what every other parish is doing: praying. Ain't doin' much good is it?

The thing that works best is for priests to talk to young men who might be interested in the priesthood. I've talked to a couple in our parish, but they're not convinced the priesthood is not a haven for gays, and I can't reassure them to the contrary. They're taking a "wait-and-see" attitude while they get their college degrees. They also want to determine if lifelong celibacy is for them.

We've got four men in training for the permanent diaconate, however, all of whom I encouraged to check it out and consider it.

I have to chuckle when laymen come on here and dismiss the concerns of men who are actually IN the priesthood.

It's very easy to take shots at something you know nothing about.

13 posted on 01/25/2005 7:19:48 AM PST by sinkspur ("Preach the gospel. If necessary, use words.")
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To: sinkspur; Mershon
This is a problem the Roman Church will of course have to work out on its own. That said, as an Orthodox Christian I must say that having had a married priesthood for the past 2000 years doesn't seem to have hurt us any. In Orthodoxy we have either a married priesthood or celibate priest monks. In our parish we have had over the past 15 years or so a couple of priest monks. They are definitely different from the married priests, better in some ways, not as good in others. My spiritual father is a priest monk and for me that's better. For others, a married priest would be preferable. Married priests certainly know more about what people living "in the world" and married are going through than celibates, and their wives are often a big help in a parish, even if their kids can be trouble (there is a Greek saying, " Son of the priest, grandson of the devil."). On the other hand parish work is tough on families and marriages and we do occasionally have the spectacle of a divorced priest. I did note in the article that the statement said, "Priesthood is a gift, celibacy is a gift: they are not the same gift,". That certainly would be the experience of Orthodoxy, but no one should think for a moment that a married priesthood will somehow or other solve the problems the Roman Church faces in this world.
14 posted on 01/25/2005 7:22:00 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Nuke the Cube!)
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To: sinkspur
Oh I knew you would be here Sinky!
15 posted on 01/25/2005 7:26:37 AM PST by murphE ("I ain't no physicist, but I know what matters." - Popeye)
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To: Kolokotronis
I agree with you completely. The experience with married Anglican converts who have been ordained to the Catholic priesthood has been a largely positive one. They work just as hard as the celibates and are valued by their parishioners as much as the celibates. In fact, parishioners don't care one way or the other.

A married Catholic priesthood would simply allow a wider pool of candidates for consideration. Those men who are called to celibacy would remain celibate and bishops would be chosen only from the celibates.

16 posted on 01/25/2005 7:28:52 AM PST by sinkspur ("Preach the gospel. If necessary, use words.")
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To: Catholic54321

Wouldn't that make them protestant if they want to change things around? They should have thought about this before they became priests.


17 posted on 01/25/2005 7:32:12 AM PST by Yank_In_A_Tank
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To: Kolokotronis; sinkspur; Mershon
On the other hand parish work is tough on families and marriages and we do occasionally have the spectacle of a divorced priest.

Excessively hard, so hard I would think a man could not carry on a Marriage and keep up with workload of the current Priesthood. I can barely keep up with being GK for the Knights, A job, and my Marriage.

A man would have to be married BEFORE ordination, and then the usual rules, as they apply to deacons today, would still apply, i.e. a widowed deacon may not remarry. If the same model is used, only the celibate may be Bishops.

I did note in the article that the statement said, "Priesthood is a gift, celibacy is a gift: they are not the same gift,". That certainly would be the experience of Orthodoxy, but no one should think for a moment that a married priesthood will somehow or other solve the problems the Roman Church faces in this world.

I think it would complicate matters, and I wonder if we need that in the Church. I would rather have fewer celibate priests than a plethora of Married Priests. There is also the issue of supporting a man and his wife and children. The children also have the issue about being the "son of a preacher-man", need I say more?
18 posted on 01/25/2005 7:35:14 AM PST by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: sinkspur; Mershon
We're doing what every other parish is doing: praying. Ain't doin' much good is it?

Hmmm.

...For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much. James 5.16

Could it be a denial of grace as a chastisement because of the rampant faithlessness and apostasy of our clergy and laity? God has a history of doing this kind of thing you know. Forty years in the desert comes to mind.

19 posted on 01/25/2005 7:40:03 AM PST by murphE ("I ain't no physicist, but I know what matters." - Popeye)
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To: sinkspur

Dear sinkspur,

"Even 'orthodox dioceses' are not recruiting sufficient numbers of men to replace those who leave, retire, and die."

We are in Washington. Since the coming of Cardinal McCarrick, vocations have doubled here in Washington, going from about 5 per year (which would lead to an overall decline of priests of perhaps 20% or more) to 9 and 10 per year. Interestingly, seminary entries have increased beyond that, but the full effect hasn't shown up yet, because we appear to still be in the upswing. Even at 10 per year, we will eventually see about a 15% increase in the number of diocesan priests in the archdiocese. However, if ordinations increase proportionately with entries to the seminary, we will, in a few years, be ordaining about 15 priests per year, which will eventually result in an increase of about 50% in the numbers of diocesan priests in our archdiocese.

In the short term, though, the number of diocesan priests will fall, as we have a big bulge of folks who are approaching retirement age (or who have even exceeded it, and have not yet retired).

At least at the present time, the Archdiocese of Washington appears to be moving out of a vocations dearth.

As a side note, there were about 800 seminarians at the Mass at the MCI Center prior to the March for Life in Washington, DC. This must account, I'm guessing, for about 1 out of every 5 or 6 seminiarians in the United States. This, to me, is evidence of the growing orthodoxy of our newer priests.

Blessed be God forever.


sitetest


20 posted on 01/25/2005 7:42:28 AM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: Kolokotronis; sinkspur

Kol, correct me if I am wrong, but aren't the Orthodox experiencing this same "shortage of priests" as the Roman Church is?

And if so, then this proves that the thesis "allowing priests to marry would solve the vocations crisis" to be untrue, would it not?

I believe I have read several articles stating that the Orthodox Church is lacking priests also. So are Protestant denominations as a matter of fact.

The vocations crisis in the Roman Church is tied to a lack of fidelity; simple as that. God always gives His people the results of their actions. He always allows them to suffer do to their stupidity (in the Catholic Church, it begain in the 1960s, and in some quarters, continues until this day.)


21 posted on 01/25/2005 7:42:37 AM PST by Mershon
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To: murphE; sinkspur

"Could it be a denial of grace as a chastisement because of the rampant faithlessness and apostasy of our clergy and laity?"

Bingo. Right on. Of course. Bump.


22 posted on 01/25/2005 7:44:12 AM PST by Mershon
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To: Mershon

It means exactly what I said. What qualifies someone who isn't married to give advice to soneone who is? Telling people how to be better parents when they themselves know nothing of the day to day struggles of rasing a kid? Why not just say that you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express the night before? And again, other christian religions allow the church leaders to marry. They live their lives, they raise families and still serve God.

I have met priests who have had women on the side. And, let's get out of denial about the amount of gays who enter the priesthood. Pedophiles are a whole different issue.


23 posted on 01/25/2005 7:44:30 AM PST by misterrob
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To: Mershon

"What specific programs do you have for the young men and boys?"

We will have our third annual altar servers' camp (Sorry, NO GIRLS ALLOWED!) for the Latin Mass this summer at the beach. We'll have three days of Masses, rubrics/Latin training, help from two or three priests and two or three seminarians, fun at the beach, and will top it off with a High Mass and then a priestly ordination on Saturday.

What specific programs do you have for your parish's young men and boys?


24 posted on 01/25/2005 7:47:42 AM PST by Mershon
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To: sinkspur; Phx_RC; livius; chemicalman; Notwithstanding; PadreL; nickcarraway; NYer; Polycarp IV; ...
Most of these threads indicate a growth in the number of seminarians and priests:

Cardinal Arinze - "Youth will embrace religious life with right role models"

Today's seminarians reflect growing trend

Number of Seminarians Increases - Please Decipher This!!!!

In Seminaries, New Ways for a New Generation

Seminary Springtime: Father Darrin Connall s Big Success

EVIDENCE GROWS OF DIRECT DISOBEDIENCE TO VATICAN IN MAJOR AMERICAN SEMINARIES

Pope to Church: Risky Seminarians Must Go

Priests Down, Seminarians Up

U.S. Priests and seminarians survey: more vocations in orthodox dioceses

Vatican Announces Surge in Seminaries during JPII Pontificate

Seminary Reform Needed in Wake of Sex Abuse Study ["the crisis in the Church is ... homosexuality"]

Homosexuals in seminaries? The latest.....

Priests 'In Orgy' at Seminary

Bishop urges gay ban in clergy; presses for overhaul in screening priests

A New Breed of Priest

AUSTRIAN SEMINARY SHUT DOWN FOR PROBE

Seminarians Show Support For Celibacy

556 Reasons for Hope [Seminarians Support Celibacy]

No Shortage of Vocations From Conservative Parishes

Oakland seminary housing sex offender priests

Phoenix bishop to helm Priestly Formation Committee [of USCCB]

Vatican Firms up Plans for U.S. Seminary Visitation in 2005

SIBLING VOCATIONS - Early calls led two sisters to same religious order

On the admission of homosexuals to seminaries

Catholic priests demand the right to marry

25 posted on 01/25/2005 7:53:46 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: misterrob

"What qualifies someone who isn't married to give advice to soneone who is?"

Based upon this same "logic," why should children listen to their parents? They have never been parents before and are "practicing" on their first-born. Why should the first-born listen to them?

The reason they are qualified is that the Church is wiser than any individuals. Based upon the current societal demise, I would think it should be obvious that whatever it is that parents are attempting to to do, (Oh, those who stay married) is simply not working.

Read what the Church teaches and apply it. For most, cutting off God's grace (through use of contraception) is probably the primary reason why things aren't working.

"And again, other christian religions allow the church leaders to marry. They live their lives, they raise families and still serve God."

And their divorce rates are HIGHER than the general population. And how is it exactly that they are serving God? By teaching heresy to their congregations in a schismatic "faith community"? Come again?


26 posted on 01/25/2005 7:54:05 AM PST by Mershon
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To: Dominick
I think it would complicate matters, and I wonder if we need that in the Church. I would rather have fewer celibate priests than a plethora of Married Priests. There is also the issue of supporting a man and his wife and children.

Matters are "complicated" now. The need in the Church is the Eucharist. Without priests, there is no Eucharist.

It seems that the Vatican would rather compromise the availability of the Eucharist than compromise on the marital status of the minister of the Eucharist.

The "problems" with married priests are all real problems. To me, the issue is, do those outweigh the declining availability of the Eucharist to Latin Rite Catholics?

27 posted on 01/25/2005 8:00:36 AM PST by sinkspur ("Preach the gospel. If necessary, use words.")
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To: Mershon
So are Protestant denominations as a matter of fact.

That's actually not the case. Applications for rural churches are down, true, but there are more than adequate numbers of Protestant ministers of all denominations who apply to serve in urban congregations.

The vocations crisis in the Roman Church is tied to a lack of fidelity; simple as that.

If that's the case, why are the numbers of men being ordained to the permanent diaconate running at TWICE the number of men who are ordained to the priesthood every year (800 versus 400)?

It is simply not true that Catholic men don't want to serve the Church. It is true that they don't want to serve the Church as celibates.

God always gives His people the results of their actions. He always allows them to suffer do to their stupidity (in the Catholic Church, it begain in the 1960s, and in some quarters, continues until this day.)

Why does God seem to approve of married priests in every other Rite of the Catholic Church except the Latin? Are we Latin Riters the only "stupid" Catholics?

28 posted on 01/25/2005 8:07:44 AM PST by sinkspur ("Preach the gospel. If necessary, use words.")
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To: Mershon
And their divorce rates are HIGHER than the general population.

You got some statistical evidence for that? I've never read that the incidence of divorce for Protestant ministers is higher than for the population in general.

29 posted on 01/25/2005 8:10:17 AM PST by sinkspur ("Preach the gospel. If necessary, use words.")
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To: murphE; Mershon; sinkspur
Mershon, why don't you and murphE keep on baiting sinkspur, and when he finally loses his temper and comes back at you, I can boot all three of you?

KNOCK IT OFF!

30 posted on 01/25/2005 8:10:31 AM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Dominick; Mershon; sinkspur
Let me try to respond to all of your replies at once.

Being a married parish priest is hard on families, no question about it. But so is being a busy doctor, lawyer or business person. Obviously, the larger the parish, the more work it is, but in our very large parishes, there is usually more than one priest. Priest's wives sometimes have a difficult time of it, but unlike in the business world, the dioceses and the Archdiocese have an organization for them which is very active and supportive.

The rules for ordination in the Orthodox Church are the same as you have set them out, Dominick, for all levels. The support issue is, or should be, a non issue. Even in our small parish, we have a compensation package for the priest which runs close to $90,000.00 total. You Romans are "notoriously cheap" when it comes to supporting your parishes.:) Paying a man his "worth" is always worth it. But it does require a level of involvement in parish functions and a commitment to stewardship which is greater than I've seen generally in the local Roman parishes.

One of you asked if we were not also having a shortage of priests. In the GOA we are not at this point in time. There is a wonderful new crop of quite conservative seminarians coming up, many of them young converts with young families. Frankly its very encouraging. On the celibate front, there is a fast growing Orthodox monasticism here in America (in Greece too for that matter), with new monasteries being established here and there across the country. This will be a tremendous blessing for all of us as Orthodox monasticism is where you find the real spiritual "athletes". Just their presence in an area can have a major impact, usually for the better.

As I said before though, a married priesthood will not solve all your problems and will a bring a set of its own. On balance, though, and from where I sit, I think it would be a good move.
31 posted on 01/25/2005 8:14:02 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Nuke the Cube!)
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To: Mershon; Catholic54321; misterrob; Yank_In_A_Tank; B Knotts; Dominick
Oh goody! Another opportunity to post a most eloquent explanation of the wisdom of the discipline of celibacy in the Roman Catholic priesthood by the late Fr. Martin, courtesy of Gerard P, from another thread.


Excerpt from the taped interview of Fr. Malachi Martin by Bernard Janzen :The Eternal War: the Priesthood in Crisis:
(transcription by Gerard P)

"...the idea is to do away with the priesthood. The thing that really militates against the popular taste today about priesthood is celibacy. They regard nowadays, in the society in which we live, the expression of sexuality whether within marriage...outside of marriage whether by yourself or with somebody of the same sex, or with an animal is regarded as quite normal.... If you don't "frighten the horses" so to speak. Provided you don't violate any "rule of decent living".

The idea that men, young men of twenty say,..take a vow of celibacy. That they will never get married. And that they can keep that without getting twisted and psychologically moronic and finally ending up in pedophilia or sadism or in some twisted psychology. That is the normal attitude towards priests today. So the idea of Roman Catholic celibacy is something that is utterly alien to the mind.

Why? Because the idea of priesthood is. And this is where the great lack in teaching in seminaries and in the Catholic populace lies.

You see...a priest..Christ was once asked, (they pointed out a eunuch to him... a eunuch was somebody who accidentally or for some reason or another couldn't have sex. His genitals were destroyed or something.)
And somebody said to him, "Lord what do you think of the eunuch? And he said,"There are three kinds of eunuchs. There's the man who's born like that from nature." ( Deficient in other words, he hasn't got the where-with-all). "There's the one who men made a eunuch." (Because they used to castrate people to make them eunuchs because eunuchs are very useful in palaces. 'cause they wouldn't touch the women and they were very good guards. And eunuchs always developed a very great cruelty. I suppose in reaction to their mutilation. And also if you did that, the voice remained high-pitched and beautiful through teenage years. And then he said, "There is a third kind of eunuch who does it to himself for the sake of the kingdom of God. He said, very mysteriously, "whoever understands, let him understand," [Fr. Martin then quotes the phrase aloud in Latin]....meaning there is a very deep mystery.

The mystery is this: I can look on my celibacy if I am a priest, as a chastity belt. And the Church has locked it and thrown away the key. In that case then, I'm just somebody deprived of what I should have a right to by a greater force that's thrown away the key.

That's not celibacy at all. That is enforced continence.

I can look on celibacy then as something acceptable to the Church but a pain in the neck or a pain somewhere else. I still am very far from it.

The celibate is somebody who says to himself or herself (a nun), "My greatest power of love is in reproduction and in living with another human being. And in having children and in exchanging our love and warmth and friendship and confidence. And giving each other the intimacy of our very being, soul and body, which a true marriage does.

But, I will give that up because..when I become a priest, Christ puts a seal on my soul. The seal of his priesthood. And that seal cordons me off for a higher destiny. And the destiny is to have a very, very particular union with God, with Christ.

And that union is the union of somebody who is going to hold God's body in his hands at Mass. And is going to be a special emissary bringing blessing and shriving people from their sins and healing their souls. That's what true celibacy is. It's a segregation of your soul from all the lovely things in life that human love can bring and marriage can bring.

By the way, Look. It also has its ills and its difficulties but in general, it's regarded as a great benefit to be married. Or to live with somebody as we do nowadays. [sarcasm from Fr. Martin]

But to cut that off deliberately and to do it lovingly and to make it a positive contribution, and to devote all the energies that nature has given us for human love... to devote them to Christ. And to concentrate all that on..the Sacrifice of Christ and the preaching of his Gospel and the transmission of his message of love and salvation to souls and healing them and shriving them and helping them supporting them guiding them and welcoming them to the truth. That is the highest vocation a man can have.

Similarly with a nun who takes a vow of chastity. The same thing, She says to herself, "I'm going to imitate Our Lady, who is a virgin. who is the Mother of God. I'm going to have spiritual children and most of Our Lady's children are spiritual. (She had only one child of her own who was called Jesus.) But, I'm going to have those children by my prayers and by my identity with the great mother: The Mother of God.

And I'm going to do all that by renouncing this: Not because it's ill or bad. It's not bad, It's good. God made it. It's good, he said, 'Increase and multiply, love each other, be one flesh. It's a sacrament in the New Covenant. But I'm going to renounce that because I'm going to have a greater identification with Our Lady because God is calling me to that. And all the love and sympathy and empathy and the perceptiveness of love, I'm going to transfer that to Our Lady and Our Lord. And I'm going to make that my special sacrifice."

And in the beginning it is a sacrifice. And then, with the passage of time and fidelity, suddenly...this flower blooms in their souls.
And they achieve this marvelous tranquility and this marvelous warmth that people always saw in the traditional priest. This amazing power to get inside you. This light, this feeling that they were there for you. They weren't riven in their sympathies. And they were there for you because Christ was their man, Christ was their King, Christ was their High Priest. That idea of priesthood....you won't find that anywhere today in Catholic manuals or preached in sermons or anything like that. Celibacy is regarded as...like Fish on Friday , a law we want to change and do away with." Fr. Malachi Martin
32 posted on 01/25/2005 8:16:36 AM PST by murphE ("I ain't no physicist, but I know what matters." - Popeye)
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To: Religion Moderator; Mershon; murphE
This isn't baiting. I'm answering every single one of their objections.

They don't like the answers, of course, but I'm answering them nonetheless.

Nobody's getting personal here; nobody's calling anybody a bad Catholic or anything or questioning his/her faith or trashing the Pope. I consider this the kind of debate we ought to have and the manner in which we ought to have it.

Mandatory celibacy is a legitimate issue in the Catholic Church, and it has nothing to do with dogmatic teaching.

Everything's fine so far, as far as I am concerned.

33 posted on 01/25/2005 8:18:03 AM PST by sinkspur ("Preach the gospel. If necessary, use words.")
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To: B Knotts

**But they never suggest fidelity to the Church's teaching as a solution, do they?**



One of the best places to put our faith is in Adoration before the Blessed Sacrament. The places where vocations to the priesthood are occurring is in the parishes that have 24/7 Adoration. (Reagrdless of the leanings of the bishop/archbishop.)

So if people want more and holy priests then they should be taking part in the 24/7 Adorations that are happening all across the U. S.


34 posted on 01/25/2005 8:20:42 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Mershon

**"This is something that really makes no sense. Priests who are not married are giving marital and other family oriented advice to those that are?"**

This is a sweeping generality voiced by many non-Catholics. Our priest served for many years in the airline industry before answering the call to become a priest. He has dealt with many married couples in finding lost luggage, etc.

Another thing on the marital point -- don't you think that priests have a good idea of how marriage works or doesn't work for the perspective of their parents? Duh.


35 posted on 01/25/2005 8:23:38 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: sinkspur; murphE; Mershon
Everything's fine so far, as far as I am concerned.

That would be fine if you were the Religion Moderator, but you're not. My warning stands.

36 posted on 01/25/2005 8:24:11 AM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Salvation

Oops -- don't you think that priests have a good idea of how marriage works or doesn't work from the perspective of their parents?


37 posted on 01/25/2005 8:26:37 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Kolokotronis

You have a point about the married priesthood in the Eastern rite. However, if a priest wants to be considered for a bishop, doesn't he have to remain celebate? Why have married priests then?


38 posted on 01/25/2005 8:28:35 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: sitetest

**As a side note, there were about 800 seminarians at the Mass at the MCI Center prior to the March for Life in Washington, DC. This must account, I'm guessing, for about 1 out of every 5 or 6 seminiarians in the United States. This, to me, is evidence of the growing orthodoxy of our newer priests.**

Oh, what good news!!!!!

Thank you, God, for the gift of these seminarians!


39 posted on 01/25/2005 8:31:33 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: All
Here are some previous threads on celibacy to peruse:

Pope Defends Clergy Celibacy Order

Has the Time Come to Consider Making Celibacy Truly Optional In the Western Church?

Catholic Scandals: A Crisis for Celibacy?

Celibacy of the priesthood is a church strength, not a liability

Celibacy s history of power and money

Pope: Priests Must Stay Celibate

Giving Thanks for the Good Shepherds ( A Defense of Priestly Celibacy)

Don't end celibacy for priests

The celibate superhero

Priestly Celibacy And Its Roots In Christ

How to Refute Arguments Against Priestly Celibacy

Priestly Celibacy Reflects Who - and Whose - We Are[Father George W.Rutler]

Celibacy

Tracing the Glorious Origins of Celibacy

God’s call to celibacy for the sake of His Kingdom - by Card. George

Vatican Says Celibacy Rule Nonnegotiable

Bishop Attacks Move to End Celibacy

A response to Fr. Joseph Wilson's defense of mandatory celibacy

The gift of Priestly celibacy as a sign of the charity of Christ, by Mother Teresa of Calcutta

Archbishop Dolan:"We Need to Be Renewing Our Pledge to Celibacy, Not Questioning It"

Celibacy is gift cherished by church

Celibacy Will Save the Priesthood

Celibacy Defended by EWTN's Fr. Levis

Call To Action: Dump Celibacy

The (Catholic) Church Has Always Prospered When Celibacy Is Honored

John Paul II Hails "Inestimable Value" of Priestly Celibacy

For Priests, Celibacy Is Not the Problem

Fr. Shannon Collins Discusses Celibacy

5 Arguments Against (Catholic) Priestly Celibacy and How to Refute Them

Why A Married Priesthood Won't Remedy the Priest Shortage

New Vatican Document on Homosexuality and the Priesthood Coming Before Fall 2005

Catholic priests demand the right to marry

40 posted on 01/25/2005 8:38:33 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Catholic54321

BTTT


41 posted on 01/25/2005 8:41:30 AM PST by vox_freedom (Fear no evil)
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To: Catholic54321
Unfortunately for them, the Church isn't a democracy.
42 posted on 01/25/2005 8:45:16 AM PST by CouncilofTrent (Quo Primum...)
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To: sinkspur

On the point of the Diaconate: Those in the Diaconate cannot say Mass or hear confessions. One could have 8 million members in the Diaconate, but it wouldnt change the fact that they cannot say Mass or hear confessions.


43 posted on 01/25/2005 8:49:25 AM PST by CouncilofTrent (Quo Primum...)
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To: sinkspur

"To me, the issue is, do those outweigh the declining availability of the Eucharist to Latin Rite Catholics?"

This is a legitimate question to ask. Our approaches, of course, and therefore our answers, may vary; but in principle, if this is truly your motivating factor, then discussing it is not outside the bounds of orthodoxy, necessarily--not any more than discussing the orthodox applications of ecumenism or the Roman rite of the liturgy.


44 posted on 01/25/2005 9:10:18 AM PST by Mershon
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To: CouncilofTrent
On the point of the Diaconate: Those in the Diaconate cannot say Mass or hear confessions. One could have 8 million members in the Diaconate, but it wouldnt change the fact that they cannot say Mass or hear confessions.

True. But deacons can do everything else. EVERYTHING ELSE!!

In terms of hours spent during the course of a week, celebrating nine Masses and two hours of confession amount to ten percent of a priest's waking hours. I thought we were also talking about workload.

Have you noticed how many activities formerly done by priests are now done by laymen? Counseling, business administration, liturgy planning, sacramental preparation, RCIA, marriage cases, hospital and nursing home visitation...all these are done by laymen and deacons in our parish.

We had a married Episcopalian priest convert here for three years, and he certainly wasn't breaking his back in terms of his workload.

45 posted on 01/25/2005 9:37:14 AM PST by sinkspur ("Preach the gospel. If necessary, use words.")
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To: Salvation

"However, if a priest wants to be considered for a bishop, doesn't he have to remain celebate? Why have married priests then?"

For many centuries now all Orthodox bishops have come from the ranks of the celibate priest monks. If you want to be a bishop, you don't get married before you get ordained. It is that simple. I guess I don't quite get your point. But as usual, I'm willing to be enlightened.


46 posted on 01/25/2005 9:51:42 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Nuke the Cube!)
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To: sinkspur; Kolokotronis
True. But deacons can do everything else. EVERYTHING ELSE!!

We have two Deacons at my parish, but they have different roles. For them they seem to be mostly liturgical, and show up at CCD classes. I can count a number of men who teach more classes during the week.

The Greek system is the way it would be, so men who are Priests now would not be afforded Marriage, nor dispensations to do so. It is also not clear who would handle this influx of vocations, since formation is the top issue for a neophyte Priest. I would not want Married Priests who are not afforded every aspect of modern vocations.

I do agree with Kolokotronis that this will not end our problems, it will not be a panacea.
47 posted on 01/25/2005 9:53:09 AM PST by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: Salvation
You have a point about the married priesthood in the Eastern rite. However, if a priest wants to be considered for a bishop, doesn't he have to remain celebate? Why have married priests then?

Believe it or not, not every priest harbors dreams of the episcopacy. Some, in fact, don't even want to be pastors. We have a 32 year old associate in our parish who pastored a rural church for a year, and told the bishop he never wants to be a pastor, ever again.

Instead, he's working on a doctorate in Scripture studies, and wants to spend the bulk of his time teaching scripture.

48 posted on 01/25/2005 9:56:20 AM PST by sinkspur ("Preach the gospel. If necessary, use words.")
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To: Dominick
I do agree with Kolokotronis that this will not end our problems, it will not be a panacea.

Of course not. But there are problems with everything. It's just a matter of which set of problems the Church can live with.

49 posted on 01/25/2005 9:58:04 AM PST by sinkspur ("Preach the gospel. If necessary, use words.")
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To: CouncilofTrent; sinkspur

In theory, and I suspect in practice, in Orthodoxy certain deacons could hear confessions. For us the office (offikion) of confessor is not automatically one held by reason of ordination. It is conferred by a bishop separate from Holy Orders. Thus it is quite common in Greece for non-ordained monks to hold that offikion and hear confessions.


50 posted on 01/25/2005 10:10:29 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Nuke the Cube!)
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